As many of our readers will know, I appeared recently on the Pints with Aquinas podcast, hosted by Matt Fradd. The interview has over 100K views. The impact seems to be international, as well: a German website called Certamen wrote up a succinct commentary that is translated below. -PAK
A Commentary on the Conversation between Matt Fradd and Dr. Peter Kwasniewski
There are conversations that begin like a quiet stream and develop into a raging torrent. The nearly four-hour interview that Catholic podcaster Matt Fradd recently conducted with Dr. Peter Kwasniewski, a prominent author and theologian of the traditional movement, is just such a case. What begins as a biographical sketch unfolds into a profound examination of Catholic liturgy, the rupture after the Second Vatican Council, and the surprising rediscovery of the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) by a new generation.
The protagonists
Matt Fradd, host of the popular YouTube channel “Pints with Aquinas,” is known for his candid and profound conversations about the Catholic faith. Dr. Peter Kwasniewski is an author whose works deal intensively with liturgy. He has become one of the leading voices for those who see the post-conciliar liturgical reform as a catastrophic break with the past.
From charismatic renewal to philosophical truth
The conversation sheds light on Kwasniewski's fascinating career: growing up in a progressive parish in the 1970s and 1980s, he experienced a typically superficial catechesis. However, his faith was rekindled in high school by a charismatic prayer group—a fact that may surprise many of his critics. This path shows that Kwasniewski did not grow up in a “traditionalist enclave,” but knows the various currents of post-conciliar Catholicism from his own experience.
A decisive turning point in his life was a philosophy course that brought him into contact with the great thinkers such as Plato, Aristotle, and Thomas Aquinas. This experience gave him the certainty that there is a knowable truth—an intellectual awakening that ultimately led him to Thomas Aquinas College, a stronghold of “Great Books” education.
The discovery of the Old Mass: a revelation in layers
It was in college that Kwasniewski first encountered the Traditional Latin Mass—almost like a secret whispered to him by fellow students. His first experience was a silent Mass (Missa lecta), which he described as deeply mystifying and otherworldly. The crucial difference from everything he had known before: this liturgy was not primarily made for people, but was entirely directed toward God. Kwasniewski describes the feeling of standing in awe at the edge of a vast mystery unfolding independently of him—an experience that fundamentally shaped him.
He describes his discovery of the Traditional Latin Mass as a revelation in several layers:
1. The Silent Mass (Missa lecta): An oasis of silence and contemplation, almost like Eucharistic adoration.
2. The sung Mass (Missa cantata): A new level of glory, in which prayers, readings, and chants permeate the liturgy, often accompanied by incense.
3. The solemn High Mass (Missa solemnis): With priest, deacon, and subdeacon, he experienced the hierarchical fullness and all the pomp of the Roman Rite.
This gradual discovery led him to realize that the richness of the liturgy had grown organically over centuries and multiplied signs of reverence and worship.
A feeling of deprivation
A central emotional point of the conversation is the feeling that many Catholics experience when discovering traditional treasures: anger and sadness at having been robbed. Matt Fradd himself vividly describes his own moment of realization in a Byzantine cathedral, where he saw ancient, magnificent vestments and sacred objects and asked himself, “Why was this taken away from us?”.
Kwasniewski argues that the liturgical reform after the Second Vatican Council eliminated precisely this richness. Instead of organic development, a radical break took place, in which countless prayers, ceremonies, and customs deeply rooted in church history disappeared overnight. He points out that only about 13% of the old orations (collective prayers) were incorporated unchanged into the new missal. This stands in stark contrast to the guidelines of the Council itself, which called for only cautious and organic changes.
More than just nostalgia
The conversation makes it clear why the debate about the Latin Mass is so emotional. It is not simply a matter of a preference for Latin or incense. It is about a fundamentally different approach to worship. The traditional Latin Mass, through its form—the priest facing east (ad orientem), the sacred language, the silence, and the precise rubrics—conveys a theological message: This is not about us, but about God.
Kwasniewski's analysis that the new Mass, with its many options and its extroverted, community-focused nature, turns the priest into a “showmaster” rather than a servant of the rite may seem provocative at first, but it is convincing. The current appeal of the Old Mass, especially to young people, seems to be a reaction to a modernity that is perceived as banal and arbitrary. In a rootless world, it offers stability, depth, and a tangible connection to the saints and generations of believers who came before us.
The nearly four-hour conversation is more than just a defense of an old liturgy. It is a profound reflection on what the Church has lost and a hopeful observation of what it is rediscovering. Whether or not one agrees with Kwasniewski's conclusions, the conversation forces every serious Catholic to grapple with the question of what is at the heart of our worship and how it shapes or even distorts our faith.
