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| Archbishop Cordileone Celebrating the Traditional Mass |
Good and proper American bishops are once again being recognized in Rome, and the nomination of Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone, of San Francisco, to the supreme tribunal of the Catholic Church, the Signatura Apostolica, by Pope Leo XIV last Saturday is just such an example.
Archbishop Cordileone was interviewed yesterday on his nomination by Raymond Arroyo, of EWTN, and we provide a partial transcript of the full program, with specifically the portion in which the Archbishop discusses matters, including the declaration by Cardinal Roche, Prefect of Divine Worship, that the new Pope does not intend to end Traditionis custodes, the Francis document aiming to gradually extinguish the Traditional Latin Mass
Raymond Arroyo: Please welcome back to the program, San Francisco Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone. Your Excellency, thanks for being here and congratulations. Before we get to your appointment to the Vatican's High Court, this week Pope Leo spoke to NBC in his first American television interview. He was asked how important it is for him to be an American. Here's what he said:
[Pope Leo XIV (clip):] "I think of myself more as the Pope who happens to be American. Not to belittle what it means to be American—I was born in the United States, my family is still in the United States, I have great love for America. But I understand my mission as having a very important dimension, which is precisely being pastor of a universal Church and having a voice and an opportunity to speak to people throughout the world. So I will put things in that order. And yet at the same time, I will acknowledge that for myself, as well as for the people of the United States, judging by the response that we've seen since May 8th of last year, that there is great significance in being the first American pope."
Archbishop, what did you make of the Holy Father's words there and that distinction he makes between being pope and being American—that he sees himself first and foremost as pope?
Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone: That is so Leo. He's a man who embraces all. I think growing up in the United States helped kind of form his thinking and certain American values that I think are good to bring to the table—our kind of "know-how" attitude and a little bit more pragmatic to get things done. But he doesn't allow that to take over. He's American in the true sense because he's spent most of his priesthood in Peru, so he's South American as well as North American. He understands America is not just the United States. And as the Prior General of the Augustinian Order, he visited every house of the Augustinians throughout the world, so he really does have a global vision. He can understand how to bring people of different cultures, attitudes, and mentalities together. And he truly is striving to be a pope for all people, not just for people from one part of the world. He's perfectly positioned to do that, so I think he's bringing a very positive vision to his office.
Raymond Arroyo: Well, there's also a little theological depth there that I think the casual viewer might miss, which is this idea that they go in as Cardinal X and come out as Pope Y, and that the office itself transforms and really overwhelms the man, which is something we lose sight of—particularly in the current media age where the pope is in your face every day.Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone: Yes. In a bygone era, the pope was kind of a distant, remote figure and didn't have that much relevance on the day-to-day life of Catholics as it is now. So he understands, yes, the pope is for all people. And yes, there's a steep learning curve for any cardinal, even a cardinal with lots of Curial experience—his was less so—so there is a steep learning curve. I think you put it well about the office overwhelming the man, but the man is up to the task as well. So the office shapes the man, but the man also shapes the office.Raymond Arroyo: Archbishop, just weeks ago on July 2nd, you conferred subdiaconate and diaconate orders on 14 seminarians of the Institute of Christ the King—that's a traditionalist order. You regularly offer the old rite, and in the wake of the SSPX consecrations, which led to excommunications of the leadership of the SSPX, you publicly called for quote "easier access to the traditional form of the Mass" so the faithful would be less inclined to seek out the TLM illicitly. Now many priests and bishops are calling for a relaxation of Pope Francis's restrictions. Yet today, in a new interview, Cardinal Arthur Roche, who's the head of the Dicastery for Divine Worship at the Vatican, tells The Tablet Pope Leo is not going to change Traditionis Custodes, and he's not going back to Summorum Pontificum—that was Pope Benedict's order that allowed greater freedom of the celebration of the old rite. Archbishop, your reaction to this?Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone: I don't know how well he knows the mind of the Holy Father, but I think one thing that's clear to everyone is the Holy Father wants to bring everyone together. He's all about unity. My concern is that if these restrictions remain in place, as I said in my statement, people will feel they have no choice to find where they experience being spiritually nourished in kind of the more traditional way the Church worships—they have to go outside of officially approved institutions and communities, and they will do that. So I think there's concern for unity on both sides. One, if the restrictions are in place, people will then go to these other groups that are not in full communion with the See of Rome. But if they're allowed generously, we have to make sure that the people who access the Mass are in full communion in terms of their belief and their acceptance of the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. Our experience here in the United States—and I think in other countries as well—is for the most part that is the case. So I think with some precautions, we can allow a greater access to the Mass and maintain unity within the Church.Raymond Arroyo: Yeah. Are Pope Francis's restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass even sustainable at this point? I mean, how do you reconcile this with Pope Leo's message to the French bishops to be more inclusive of those who love the old Mass, which he said not very long ago?Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone: To be honest, I don't think it's realistic. We look at the younger generation: they all love the tradition, they love the more classical way that the Church worships—the traditional Mass, what we call the traditional Mass, the form of the Mass before it was changed after the Second Vatican Council. But even the order of the Mass as we have now, done in a more traditional way with the priest ad orientem and the sacred music and great solemnity and reverence—they're desiring this deep tradition. It takes them to a very deep place. This is unstoppable. It's what's drawing young people in, and will continue to do so. And the Church has to respond to it in some way. So let's hope they get this right in Rome.Raymond Arroyo: Now, the big news that brought you here tonight: On July 25th, the Holy See Press Office announced that Pope Leo has named you one of seven new members of the Apostolic Signatura—that's the Church's Supreme Judicial Tribunal, presided over by Cardinal Dominique Mamberti. Archbishop, you're not a stranger to this office; you worked as an official there in that tribunal back in the 1990s. For our viewers who've never heard of the Signatura, what exactly is this court and what's the nature of the cases it handles?Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone: So there are three sections of the Apostolic Signatura.The first section is where it functions judicially. This would be cases of recourse against decisions of the Roman Rota—if someone asks for a new proposal of the hearing of the case and they're denied, or claim there's an invalidity of a Rotal sentence because, for example, denial of right of defense, cases of suspicion of bias of a judge. These types of technical appeals against Rotal decisions are judged by the Signatura—more technical, procedural grounds.The second section is where it functions as what we call an administrative tribunal. We don't have that in the common law system, but these are cases of administrative recourse. A bishop or religious superior issues a decree, an administrative decision, the people affected want it rescinded, and the superior doesn't. They would appeal to the proper dicastery in Rome. Appeals against that decision then are heard by the Apostolic Signatura, again more on procedural grounds rather than the merits of the case.The third section is roughly comparable to the work of a Department of Justice, which is vigilance over the administration of justice—moderating and monitoring the work of tribunals throughout the world, intervening when it's necessary to extend the competence of a tribunal, erect or suppress interdiocesan tribunals, things like that.Raymond Arroyo: Do you all meet—will you all meet in a way as the Supreme Court does, where you'll hear cases and go back and forth and dispute cases personally among the seven members of the Signatura?Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone: Yes. Well, these are seven added on to those who have not turned out—the ones who turned out are now being replaced. So there are a number of hearings throughout the year. Some of the members who are the judges are local in Rome; others are diocesan bishops in other dioceses throughout the world, as myself. So they would not expect those of us far away to attend every time. We will attend a hearing as often as we can; those would be about three or four times a year. And then once a year, they have what they call a plenaria, where all of the members come together.Raymond Arroyo: What does it mean to you personally to return to the Signatura as a judge after having served as a young official in that court? And did the Pope tip off this appointment to you personally?Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone: Cardinal Mamberti spoke to me by telephone a few days before the announcement to inform me of it, yes. It is certainly a great honor; it's also a great challenge. As you said, I was there in the '90s up to 2002, so it's been quite a long time since I worked at the Signatura. My work was mainly in the third section; the judges' work is mainly in the second and first sections. So it will take me a while to sort of get up to speed and refresh my memory on this. But I enjoy the work of canon law. I've been a member of the USCCB Canonical Affairs Committee all the time that I've been a bishop, so I've been able to keep abreast of canon law issues. So the work interests me and it's my background, so I look forward to digging into the work before me.Raymond Arroyo: Well, I think they found the right man for the job. Archbishop Cordileone, thank you so much for being here. Godspeed, and we'll see you soon.Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone: Thank you.
