Rorate Caeli

Italian Protestants: "a spirit of Counter-Reformation" has returned...

News from the Synod of the Valdensians and Methodists in Italy, assembled in Torre Pellice (Piedmont), on Summorum Pontificum and the recent Responses of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. From the text of the "order of the day" (motion), approved yesterday, which shows that the Italian Protestants understand the full meaning of the Traditional Mass:

"-considering the ecumenical situation created following the recent motu proprio entitled Summorum Pontificum, of Benedict XVI, which has restored the position of the Latin Mass according to the Roman Missal of Pius V (1570), characterized by the denial of all that the Reformation had affirmed on the matter of the renewal of public Christian worship, and the document entitled Responses to some questions regarding certain aspects of the doctrine on the Church...of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith , in which, among other things, it is affirmed that the only Church of Christ 'subsists exclusively in the one Catholic Church' of Rome and that the churches born out of the Reformation of the 16th century 'cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called 'Churches' in the proper sense'."...

"-We thank God for having liberated us, for eight centuries as Valdensians and for five centuries as Protestants, from submission to the Roman Pontiff, whom we recognize as a brother in Christ, but not as a teacher of the faith, realizing additionally, once again, that the Papacy and the Roman Curia are today, as in the 16th century, an obstacle to Christian unit;"...

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

Is this a bad thing?

Roger said...

It's a great, but sad thing.

We should pray that these people and those like them are converted.

Anonymous said...

Sometimes clarity is more important than agreement. The Holy Father is causing these Waldensians and Methodists to understand that we believe their understanding of Christianity to be deficient. That is a good thing.

How fascinating that Waldensians are still around! There's a Waldensian church (along with several Catholic churches) in the Italian village my grandmother left as a child, early in the 20th Century. She once told me that she knew it was there, but had never entered it, because she thought it was "the devil's church".

thetimman said...

Wonder how thankful they'll be about that "liberation" (read delusion) from submission to the Roman Pontiff on the last day?

Peter is not an obstacle to Christian unity. He is the earthly source and symbol of it.

Anonymous said...

The irony of these splinter groups kevetching about "unity" (when they are the very embodiment of the disunity inherent in Protestant) is just...too...much.

Jordan Potter said...

Although historically the Italian Waldensians trace back to the medieval heretics called Waldensians, it is important to realise that the Waldensians decided to become Protestants in the 1500s and decided to become Methodists in the 1900s. Thus, although there is a historical link between the medieval heretics and the modern heretics known as Waldensians, doctrinally and theologically the Italian Waldensians have little in common with their medieval ancestors. They are now just another unimportant Methodist sect, and their opinions about the Catholic Church are as authoritative as the opinions of any other of the thousands of Methodist sects.

The Methodist/Waldensians, however, are particularly sensitive to anything that reminds them of the so-called Counter-Reformation, when many of them were put to death during an attempt to repress and root them out in Italy.

John Mastai said...

Implicit though is that they saw the Vatican II term "subsists" and the post Vatican II liturgy in particular as moving in their direction. It's about time that some real direction and clarity is finally begin given.

Anonymous said...

Before i was converted to the one true Faith as a child I would get myself up on Sunday morning and go to any protestant church that was in the neighborhood. I did not feel anything special but I was always looking for our Lord. It was not until my now husband took me to my first Mass that when I entered the door and saw the tabernacle I fell to me knees. I knew that here I had found my Lord and my God. He was truly present here in this Church as he was never present in any of the others that I had attended in the past. Firstly I thank God for my conversion and I pray daily the others will come out of these empty buildings and come to know and love of Lord as he intended.

Anonymous said...

"in which, among other things, it is affirmed that the only Church of Christ 'subsists exclusively in the one Catholic Church' of Rome "

No, it said it subsists in the 'Catholic Church', not the "Catholic Church of Rome." Do these people understand Catholic ecclesiology at all? One suspects not.

""-We thank God for having liberated us... from submission to the Roman Pontiff, whom we recognize as a brother in Christ, but not as a teacher of the faith,"

In turn, let's thank God for keeping us in communion with the Successor of Peter, who confirms us in the faith and is an instrument of the unity of the Church.

" the Papacy and the Roman Curia are today, as in the 16th century, an obstacle to Christian unity"

It's their "liberation" from the pope which is the obstacle to Christian unity.

Let's pray for these people. And for the pope while we're at it.

- Dev.

Anonymous said...

" the Papacy and the Roman Curia are today, as in the 16th century, an obstacle to Christian unity"

Oh and I've just noticed the double irony in this post. Apparently it was the papacy, not the Protestant reformers, who were responsible for the disintegration of Christian unity in the 16thC. Wow.

humboldt said...

". . . the Papacy and the Roman Curia are today, as in the 16th century, an obstacle to Christian unity"

I could precise that the present Papacy and Roman Curia, are a hindrance to "Roman Catholic" unity.

I wish that "neo-protestants" (priests, bishops and cardinals), in the Catholic Church would come to the same conclusion as the Italian protestants have reached.

But the neo-protestant beast in the Catholic Church is not yet broken in, on the contrary I think they are deadly wounded as a wounded tiger, and as such they will become even more pernicious.

We should expect to see a regrouping of the liberal beast in the Catholic Church, seeking to confuse what good Benedict XVI has been able to infuse in the Catholic Church, so far.

I pray that Benedict XVI is part of the solution and not part of the problem. I am still not convinced.

Ad Orientem said...

"...once again, that the Papacy and the Roman Curia are today, as in the 16th century, an obstacle to Christian unit;"

This would I think depend on whom one seeks unity with. Is Rome interested in seeking unity with several thousand little sects that if gathered in general council could not collectively agree on what time to take a bathroom break? I rather think not, and for good reasons.

On the other hand we Orthodox generally find recent events rather encouraging. Note the comments from HH +Alexei II Patriarch of Moscow and the Russian Orthodox Church regarding the Motu Proprio. Also note the response of Met + Kyril of Smolensk to the declaration from the CDF regarding other Christian confessions. From the position of probably most Orthodox; we see Rome moving to put its house back in order after a period of neglect and internal disturbances. This is nothing other than good news. The CDF declaration was just more or less an honest statement of position from Rome about how they perceive the order of things. Broadly speaking most Orthodox would agree with many of its points (although we would obviously assert that The Church subsists in its entirety in Orthodoxy). But there was really nothing in there that gave us any heartburn.

Rome needs to stop pretending that there is hope for reunion with any Protestants. There isn't any. The Christian World is rapidly dividing into two camps. The Apostolic Churches on the one hand and the Pseudo-Christian sects that one needs a stop watch to keep track of their ever evolving beliefs on the other. Let the Waldenisians and the Baptists and the Episcopalians and... let them all whine. When you are getting praise from this lot, its time to step back and ask what you are doing wrong.

This doesn't mean never talk to them. But it does mean that tolerance and peaceful coexistence must never be confused for acquiescence to heresy. I love my Protestant brothers and sisters. But you will never see me participating in any "ecumenical" prayer or worship services. When I speak on matters of faith to the heterodox it is to witness with love and charity to the truth of Holy Orthodoxy. If they receive the good news then great. If they do not then we agree to disagree and pray to God for His mercy on all of His unworthy children, including yours truly.

I have no hope for Protestants who are not prepared to stop being Protestants. Rome however is a different story. The road to restoration of communion will be very difficult. But it is possible.

ICXC NIKA
John

Syriacus said...

«An Emo Phillips joke


Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!"

He said, "Nobody loves me."

I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes."

I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"

He said, "A Christian."

I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"

He said, "Protestant."

I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"

He said, "Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."

I said, "Die, heretic scum!", and pushed him over.»

Anonymous said...

I attended a Waldensian service in Rome once...so calvinist trendy and boring. The numbers are small and they will die out. The comments seem very very good because these groups followers of Waldo...then suddenly changed their outlook by becoming some sort of Protestant out of thousands of churches now all contradicting eachother. They thought we were becoming Protestants ourselves.hahahahah well I would rather die than ever do that!!!!!!!!

humboldt said...

About Syriacus and: An Emo Phillips joke. . .

:)Lol, ROFL, BWL. . .
:)

Iosephus said...

Awesome! quotation from that document.

Katharine said...

And they had no problem with the Novus ordo of Paul VI? Does that not speak for itself?!

Anonymous said...

Ab illo benedicaris + in cujus honore cremaberis.

Anonymous said...

I don't think that Pope Benedict XVI nor mostly all Catholics (except the ecumaniacs among progressive Catholics), will loose any sleep over the anxiety of Protestant Methodists and Valdensians (or any other Protestant group) coming from the restoration of the Tridentine Latin Mass or the definitive document from the Pope proclaiming that the Catholic Church is the one true Church.
Lets' hope we actually ARE in the midst of another Catholic Counter-Reformation....a very strong reaffirmation of traditional Catholicism, and a total rejection of the ill concieved ecumenism the Catholic Church has joined in for the last 40 years.

Anonymous said...

"ill concieved ecumenism the Catholic Church".

I believe that ecumenism has been the most pernicious ideology to infect the Catholic Church in the XXth Century. It is a ludricus ideology, on which no honest person can believe in. However the dire expression of this ideology, and its most clear manifestation of failure is that since this ideolgy has found a brick wall outside of the Catholic Church, (because no honest protestant believes that anything can come out of it, they just don't believe in the need to have one central command for all Christians), it has turned inward destroying and contaminating the faith of millions of catholics, causing agnosticism, lose of faith, heressies, and the like among Catholics.

That JPII proclaimed that this pernicious ideology is "irreversible" demonstrates the apostasy of the Conciliar Church, and the moral quality of these madmen, including JPII.

Nobody in their right mind, believes in it, but only in the schizophrenic mind of the madmen who are ruling the Catholic Church is possible that such a monster was ever conceived and ever applied.

¡God save us from these madmen!

Anonymous said...

And Benedict XVI also believes in this crazyness. He even said that God commands us to seek one central command for all Christians.

¡Absurd and preposterous!

Jordan Potter said...

¡God save us from these madmen!

If you do not have the self-discipline to refrain from slandering and condemning the Holy Father, then at least do it somewhere else.

You know, it's possible to criticise and object to the Church's ecumenical endeavors without accusing the Pope and most of the bishops of dishonesty and vilifying them as madmen. I beseech you, please schedule a visit with your confessor as soon as possible.

Anonymous said...

Jordan Potter, I grant you that I need to visit my confessor, however this feeling of mine is based on very real facts.

You rebuke me for calling the current papacy and the current order of bishops madmen, although not all of them share in this folly, however if one sees what has been happening in the clergy with pervert priests, bishops and even Lord Cardinals then the only explanation for this is that "madness" has taken hold of this Catholic Church.

The "bad fruits" are evident.

I again avow that the conciliar church's policy of "ecumenism" is a complete hoax and anti-Christian.

One thing is dialogue between Christians to foster the Gospel and common holiness, and another is the delusional belief of the conciliar Holy See to become the sole ruler and interpreter of all Christians. God does not want this because there are too many "structures of sin in the Catholic Church. Christiany needs protestants.

I don't care if Benedict XVI says that God has commanded the Church to foster one command center for all Christians, I will never believe him, because that is not what Jesus Christ preached in the Gospel and God never contradicts himlself.

I pity those gullible Christians that see in every word, movement and gesture of the Pope, God himself speaking. If the Pope were really humble he should strive to be a a good Christian in his realm of action, which is governing the Church instead of seeking to become the ruler of the world.

What that puny Pontifical Council for Christian Union should be doing is preaching the Gospel, that that is really the command from Jesus Christ. In fact this council should be renamed as "Pontifical Council for Inter-Christian Dialogue".

That lust for power, recognition, glory and money by the Conciliar Church is an affront to God.

In Matthew 6, 31-33, Jesus said:

"31 Be not solicitous therefore, saying, What shall we eat: or what shall we drink, or wherewith shall we be clothed? 32 For after all these things do the heathens seek. For your Father knoweth that you have need of all these things. 33 Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you."

And the pharisaical Conciliar Church has only heed to this in the realm of public life, but justice for Christ starts in ourselves and in our homes, not in the public life. Justice in the public life is a fruit of the interior, not the other way around as the pharisees who rule in Rome tries to believe.

That is why all that hypocresy of the Conciliar Church in talking in favor of the materially "poor" for the past 50 years has achieved absolutetly NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING. It has been completely with no value and merit.

While the Concilar Church loves to go to the UN and be a center of international politics, corruption and debauchery flurish right under the window of the apostolic palace, if you don't believe this go and ask the Swiss Guards what happened there in the 1990s, no to mention what happens in dioceses all over the world were homosexuals and perverts rule with an iron hand, filling their bellies and saciating their bane primitive desires with children.

Jordan Potter you send me to confession, fine, but first I have to find a worthy priest and they are very, very hard to find.

Until when we will have to put up with those "fat cats" in the Vatican and in the diocesan curias?

The revolution of love which Benedict XVI announced in Cologne 2005 should be made inside the Catholic Church, not outside.

A.M.D.G.

Anonymous said...

And one more thing Jordan Potter, I wouldn't care if the "ecumenism" thing were only an academic or rethorical excercise. But it is not, it is the driving force of the changes underwent in the Catholic Church since the II Vatican Council.

Mons. Lefebvre was right: "They (the Vatican) are changing our religion".

Jordan Potter said...

[i]Jordan Potter you send me to confession, fine, but first I have to find a worthy priest and they are very, very hard to find.[/i]

You have posted your bleat against ecumenism in the commentbox of a post having to do with the reaction of the Waldensian Methodists of Italy to the motu proprio and the reaffirmation that the Catholic Church is the Church. So I may be instructive to quote from a profession of faith that Peter Waldo, founder of the Waldensians, signed in A.D 1180:

[i]We accept the sacraments celebrated in the Church through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, even though administered by priests who sin.[/i]

Take it from a heretic like Peter Waldo: a worthy priest is not that hard to find.

Jordan Potter said...

Jordan Potter you send me to confession, fine, but first I have to find a worthy priest and they are very, very hard to find.

You have posted your bleat against ecumenism in the commentbox of a post having to do with the reaction of the Waldensian Methodists of Italy to the motu proprio and the reaffirmation that the Catholic Church is the Church. So it may be instructive to quote from a profession of faith that Peter Waldo, founder of the Waldensians, signed in A.D 1180:

We accept the sacraments celebrated in the Church through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, even though administered by priests who sin.

Take it from a heretic like Peter Waldo: a worthy priest is not that hard to find.

Alexander said...

This is just further proof of the ambiguity that exists in the Vatican II texts and how the New Mass was watered down for not only simplicity’s sake but also to foster "ecumenism."

FromBrazil said...

Thanks God I am not a protestant, nor a valdesian, nor a baptist, nor a methodist, nor a lutheran, nor a.....
thanks God, I am just a Catholic!

Anonymous said...

"We accept the sacraments celebrated in the Church through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, even though administered by priests who sin."

¡Perhaps this dogma, which is also catholi,c is wrong!

Anonymous said...

I wouldn't say John Paul II was a madman like one poster said. But I would say that He was ecumenically very seriously in error. Some of his actions (kissing the Koran, visiting Buddhist temples, synagogues, mosques, praying at the graves of Protestant "martyrs" in Africa, asking forgiveness for the Church persecuting protestants, giving the new Archbishop of Canturbury at the time a ring and pectoral cross (as if the Anglican were a legit Bishop instead of just a layman as He is), and procaliming this type of inter-religious dialog and progressive ecumenism with Protestants as "irreversable".
Well, Benedict XVI has already reversed a lot of it...thank God. He's cordial to Protestants, but there's been no huge prayer meetings, ecumenical contacts in the Vatican, etc. with them like under JP II.
When Benedict XVI restored the Tridentine Latin Mass with his Motu Proprio in July, the Greek and other Orthodox cheered, including the Russian Orthodox because they know the nonsense which came after Vatican II in the Mass was appalling and a disaster for the Catholic traditiona and faith.
On the otherhand, the Protestants fumed, ranted, raved and threw fits. Because they realize that this gesture by Benedict XVI brings the Catholic Church a giant step back from the horrible prospect of being very similar to Protestantism with regards to liturgy and expressions of Catholic worship. They claim a spirit of Counter-Reformation has returned. And they mean this in the most negative sense of the word.
I hope they are correct. I hope the Catholic Church does recapture the zeal and unashamed passion for our traditions that the Catholic Counter-Reformation gave birth to. It probably won't happen, but we could use some new traditionalist religious Orders to spring up like they did at the Counter-Reformation to help restor the Church. And by new Orders and movements, I don't mean Communion e Liberazione or Foccolare that JP II loved so much....I mean true real religious Orders of men and women to restore the Church.
The Jesuits are a dead group, no hope for them. But replacement religious Orders might be in the wings.

Anonymous said...

"Well, Benedict XVI has already reversed a lot of it...thank God. He's cordial to Protestants, but there's been no huge prayer meetings, ecumenical contacts in the Vatican, etc. with them like under JP II."

I would have to had "so far", we will see what he lays ahead for the Church. If the Germans (the main advocates of false ecumenism) complain a lot Benedict XVI will see how to assuage the situation.

I think that a correction at the essence of false ecumenism will be changing the name of the Pontifical Council in charge of this to:

"PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTRA-CHRISTIAN DIALOGUE"

Anonymous said...

As for JPII and his "excesses" well he certainly gave continuous proofs of his "supreme" authority, even above tradition and cannon law. I wonder if because he was raised in a Communist country, some of the communist anti-catholic propaganda stuck to him. Perhaps in the subconscious.

Anonymous said...

Well, Benedict XVI has already reversed a lot of it...thank God. He's cordial to Protestants, but there's been no huge prayer meetings, ecumenical contacts in the Vatican, etc. with them like under JP II."

I would have to say "so far", we will see what lays ahead for the Church, by Benedict XVI. If the Germans (the main advocates of false ecumenism) complain a lot Benedict XVI will see how to assuage the situation.

I think that a correction at the essence of false ecumenism will be changing the name of the Pontifical Council in charge of this to:

"PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTRA-CHRISTIAN DIALOGUE"

Jordan Potter said...

¡Perhaps this dogma, which is also catholi,c is wrong!

Yeah, I didn't think you were really a Catholic, Anonymous. Your rant sounded more like something a fundamentalistical sedevacantist sort of person might utter.

Of course that dogma in the profession of faith that the Catholic Church instructed Peter Waldo to sign is a Catholic dogma. The Church wouldn't have asked Waldo to affirm something that isn't true. And since it is a Catholic dogma, that means it IS true, and you're a heretic or near to heresy if you are really open to the considering that maybe it's not true.