Rorate Caeli

Note

The comments of the post on the death of Vaclav Havel are not available anymore. It is disastrous to have to hide them thanks to the unbridled hatred of some people regarding a deceased man baptized in the Catholic Church in a post in which all that was mentioned was the need to pray for his soul (and the very interesting revival of a venerable Catholic practice of tolling the bells of all churches in a moment of national relevance). This repulsive, unforgiving, judgmental and self-righteous pseudo-zeal is anything but Traditional - in fact, few attitudes were more often criticized by Our Lord on this earth than this one. If your heart is filled with this kind of sentiment, please refrain from posting comments here; we do not need the aggravation in the week leading up to Christmas.

11 comments:

R said...

Thank you, NC. Alas, if you reposted the piece on "false zeal" every 30 seconds, it would still not get through to some of these self-appointed Guardians of the Tradition, whose paranoid murmurings litter the comment box of this fine blog. A blessed Rorate week to you!

GQ Rep said...

I don't understand why there was so much hatred towards the man. Was he a radical dissenting liberal? Or a pro-gay/lesbian politician?

I am nearly 31, and I have changed in my attitude towards people, politics, and the Catholic Church.

Afew years ago, when I was a Highschool teacher practically just out of college, and a second more promising job which took me around the world was only an occasional thing (instead of all the time like now), I spent so much of my time ranting about people who were not Catholic, about those who were pro-choice etc., that I seemed to be angry all the time. I even began to resent the Catholic Church because I was robbed of the same Faith and Mass my parents and grandparents grew up with(and that wasn't even in the USA!)

But since I have started traveling the world 3-4-5x a year sometimes for 6-8 weeks at a time I have met hundreds of different people, who are different than me in a thousand ways. I know many Americans hate Muslims. Yet I have met some of the best people I have ever met in the world who are Muslims in Turkey. I've met Buddhist monks and nuns, and visited several Buddhist monasteries and convents (HORRORS!!) in Japan. I didn't worship with them of course, but I experieced it. Why not? Some of my relatives live in that country, some are Buddhists, others Catholic. And some of the Buddhists people I am proud to call friends are more "Christlike" and more "christian" than any of the "Christians" of the ilk of Barbara Bachmann, Rick Perry, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, or Newt Gingrich ! Believe me when I tell you it's true.

I used to do it, but some people on Catholic blogs spend so much time literally hating, that it's really distrubing. It's as sick as that lunatic Baptist pastor who burnt the Koran in Florida, or the Baptists who who go around stalking families at the funerals of fallen heroes from the wars in Iraq or Afganistan and boo when the casket is being lowered in the ground. Those people should be arrested and in jail for 30 years for doing such a thing.


There's no reason to spew hatred at the memory of Vaclav Havel. He was a good an decent man. Maybe he was secular in his outlook...but unfortunatly so is the rest of the Western world. The idea of a Christian West, or of a united Christemdom was dealt a near mortal blow by the Protestant Reformation....and Vatican II has tried to finish the job.

If he (Havel) had been a despotic megalomaniac like the late Kim Jung Il in North Korea (died Saturday), or a Mao Tse Tung, or a Slabodan Milosovic(Serbia) or a Stalin, I could understand it.

Havel;s only fault to these people is that he didn't guide his country according to Catholic/Christian principles. That would have been great, but impossible. The wreckage from the Protestant Reformation, and now Vatican II makes it impossible.

Let the man's political views go, and remember him as one who brought the Czech and Solvak republics out of the wreckage of Communism. Remember him as the good father, writer, author, poet, and personally good Catholic he was.

Eternal Rest grant unto him O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon him. May his soul and the souls of all the faithfully departed rest in peace. Amen.

That's what we should think of first when we hear that someone has died....isn't it. Not how lousy they were.

P.K.T.P. said...

Speaking of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jung-Il, mentioned by another poster, I wonder if we could all set aside a Rosary for the people of North Korea. They have long been in a terrible state and need our prayers and our help. Christmas is a good time to think about the people there.

P.K.T.P.

GQ Rep said...

"Speaking of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jung-Il, mentioned by another poster, I wonder if we could all set aside a Rosary for the people of North Korea. They have long been in a terrible state and need our prayers and our help. Christmas is a good time to think about the people there."

This is true. Let us pray that the transition is peaceful, and the new young leader of North Korea is not wreckless , or listens to wrong militaristic advice.

I am as patriotic as most Americans, but as someone who has relatives living both in the area of Tokyo and Hokkaido, Japan, and also in Seoul( members of Japanese minority in Korea....Korea was a puppet state (to use the word colony is insulting to the Korean people) of Japan from the end of the 19th century to 1945 and the Japanese defeat in WW II) I know it is their wish and prayer that the USA does not make the situation worse with inflammatory language or threats aimed at North Korea.

With the USA Presidential campaigns in full gear, I know President Obama will be diplomatic, reasoned, balanced, and yet at the same time courageous in his dealings with North Korea.

I worry though that these Republican candidates (5 of whom who are famous for shooting their mouths off making undereducated, rude or inflammatory and even racist comments) might make this new unexpected situation explosive with unguarded and misguided comments.

Without naming their names, let us hope that these people don;t heighten a tense situation by making inflammatory, degrading, or contemptous remarks as is so much their style.
Our interests, and those of the good people of North and South Korea as well as Japan, would be better served if the candidates observed a period of silence.

Let's pray for that too.

Michal Kretschmer said...

Havel was a supporter of homosexualismus. he did not live as a Christian.We did not know if he is in a hell. Therefore is acceptable to pray for him.

Curmudgeon said...

New Catholic,

A suggestion for dealing with this situation in the future would be to have two threads.

One that notes the person's death, calls for prayers, and only has posts for the repose of the person's soul.

A second thread could have an open, candid, yet respectful, discussion of the person's beliefs and actions and to what extent they did or didn't square with Catholic Tradition.

Barbara said...

All I can say is that the more I have grown in self-knowledge i.e. my own great need of God's grace and infinite mercy, I have become more tolerant, forgiving and understanding of others and their quirks and sins. God has forgiven me so much (and continues to do so)and when I peek at my past (shame and deep regret) without the graces of the Sacraments of Holy Church, I am amazed at Our Lord's patience and abundant generosity to me - totally unmerited. - Perhaps our spiteful brothers (I have see few sisters) in Tradition lack in that - self-knowledge...just saying. I feel sorry for practically everyone. I say practically everyone, simply because I get quite angry when I see the perpetrators of injustices and untruths who are a cause of scandal for so many - but, I might add, the very idea of one soul going to hell for all eternity is a frightful thought for me. I don't wish it on anyone -

Prayers for everyone. Mercy, Himself, is in our midst....what could we do without the Incarnation?

M.S. said...

Thank you for this Note.

RogerThat said...

Dear NC,

I would say it's "neo-traditional", and I am tired of this. I cannot say "He [anyone] is ... (freemason, muslim, gay, evangelical, etc) and/but he is a good person" that I am excommunicated by a neo-trad at the same time.

J.G. Ratkaj said...

Well, personally I am neither interested in egalitarian democracy nor with her representants but President Václav Havel had class, stature and culture and that made him an extraordinary appearance in this predominating lacklustre european nomenclature. God rest his soul!

Delphina said...

Barbara wrote:

"All I can say is that the more I have grown in self-knowledge i.e. my own great need of God's grace and infinite mercy, I have become more tolerant, forgiving and understanding of others and their quirks and sins. God has forgiven me so much (and continues to do so)and when I peek at my past (shame and deep regret) without the graces of the Sacraments of Holy Church, I am amazed at Our Lord's patience and abundant generosity to me - totally unmerited. - Perhaps our spiteful brothers (I have see few sisters) in Tradition lack in that - self-knowledge...just saying. I feel sorry for practically everyone. I say practically everyone, simply because I get quite angry when I see the perpetrators of injustices and untruths who are a cause of scandal for so many - but, I might add, the very idea of one soul going to hell for all eternity is a frightful thought for me. I don't wish it on anyone -

Prayers for everyone. Mercy, Himself, is in our midst....what could we do without the Incarnation?"
------------------------------

Barbara, right on!!

Why is it so hard for people to understand that there but for the grace of God go themselves?