Rorate Caeli

Some more information on yesterday's meeting


On this Wednesday's edition of Il Giornale, Andrea Tornielli confirms the words provided by Cardinal Medina on the content of the plenary meeting of the Ecclesia Dei commission, reported here yesterday, and adds some new information:

...

In the order of the day for the meeting was also a discussion on the juridical framework in which to place the Lefebvrists after their readmission into full communion with the Holy See.

The debated questions were, thus, two. ...

Benedict XVI intends to extend the indult of his predecessor, in fact withdrawing from the bishops discretionary power on the matter: the Missal of Saint Pius V is no longer abolished, and even if the ordinary Roman Rite is that originated from the post-conciliar liturgical reform, the old one -- used by centuries in the Church -- can subsist as an "extraordinary rite".

The bishops, therefore, will not be able to deny the ancient mass anymore, but only regulate its eventual celebration, together with the parish priests, harmonising it with the need of the community. The corrections included would have reduced from 50 to 30 the minimal number of faithful who ask for the celebration according to the old rite. As for the readmission of the Lefebvrists, once the rite of Saint Pius V is liberalized, the deal should be easier.

54 comments:

Brian Kopp said...

This sounds far better than anyone had been hoping.

It does NOT sound like a "Hegelian" ploy.

Simon-Peter said...
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poeta said...

It may be that the eventual "juridical framework" would not leave the SSPX at the mercy of the local bishops. Since it sounds as if the Mass will be largely emancipated from the bishops, perhaps the SSPX would receive similar treatment.

Hibernalis said...

What's with the minimum of 50/30 people requesting the Mass? Does that mean that a priest must have that number of signatures before he can celebrate? What about a private Mass? I thought this was about liberalization, not strictures!

New Catholic said...

Do not worry, Hibernalis. It is appropriate to wait for the actual text of the eventual document before reaching hasty conclusions.

HSarsfield said...

Hibernalis,

From what has been said elsewhere it seems:

Private Masses would be allowed for up to the number of people needed for a Public Mass. So I would not worry yet. I do agree that in end we just have to wait to see what the document says, but I feel pretty confident that the document will meet the requirement of the SSPX for liberalization. Keep praying.

Stu said...

I think hsarsfield to be correct. Papa seems to clever not to have taken all of the "moving pieces" into consideration while planning this move out. I suspect that is why it has taken so long (relatively speaking). Getting this "right" takes both coordination and careful consideration.

Vivat Iesus.

Brian Kopp said...

From what I can piece together so far, it appears that a priest may offer a private Tridentine mass without any involvement from the local bishop, if the numbers of laity do not exceed an arbitrary number, 30 or 50 has been mentioned.

If at least 30 (or 50) laity request a public Tridentine Mass in a diocese, then the bishop must comply and provide it. This new indult does not appear to be asking for a wide and generous application. It appears to dictate it, from the evidence so far.

That gives the bishop the ability to "regulate" to some limited extent.

proklos said...

This of course is only a step. It would be foolish for SSPX to accept being the high church wing of a Church divided into broad church reform of reform novus ordinarians and low church protestant uniates.

Stu said...

Or the Society could take the view that they have much to offer a Pope who is working towards fixing many things. But taking one's ball home is always an option.

Simon-Peter said...

This is NOT entirely about the SSPX.

I can't wait to see if lay Catholics who assist at SSPX masses will, in some way, go forth now into Novus Ordo parishes (infiltrate them, or salt them if you prefer), or will insist the local most Ordinary permit them to use a Church and preferably one in the heart of the diocese.

Hint to SSPX: St. Joseph's, Raleigh Deanery, Diocese of Raleigh, affords a prime opportunity. Laity sympathetic (mostly), Mons. sympathetic (mostly), money already raised (mostly)for new building program, Church preserved (mostly) from the iconoclasts, and a new Bishop who was chosen by BXVI personally...

But, mostly, I am getting way ahead of things.

Quite fascinating stuff.

Prof. Antonio Basto said...

proklos,

I tought the Society considered itself part of that Church. Are you saying that it is not part of the Church?

**********

I agree with Stu. The Pope is trying, and he will already face opposition from Ricard-like liberals.

The least the Society can do is to offer something on its part to show that the Holy Father´s efforts aren´t worthless. At a point when the Holy Father will be under severe attack or sabotage by liberals, the Society would do well not to trouble him with additional criticism from the other front.

Brian Kopp said...

Prof. Antonio Basto said...

At a point when the Holy Father will be under severe attack or sabotage by liberals, the Society would do well not to trouble him with additional criticism from the other front.

*****

Unfortunately, Bp. Williamson has already stated beforehand that anything the Pope does now is a "Hegelian" ploy to deceive, co-opt and destroy the SSPX.

Bp. Fellay needs to either silence Bp. Williamson -- or admit that the SSPX has no intention whatsoever of rapproachment.

MacK said...

Surely, one needs to see an actual document before drawing premature conclusions. No one can start directing anything until there is an official document, signed & sealed, in the public domain. Comments about SSPX are out of bounds, since they will most certainly respond in the most appropriate manner, depending on how it is framed. The framing of such a document will be the test of its credibility.

humboldt said...

I just pray that Benedict XVI does the "right" and "just" thing with the Tridentine Liturgy, independently of the SSPX situation. These two situations, although related do not go hand in hand. AMDG.

humboldt said...

Informative posting, I did not know that there was a required minimum for petioning the Tridentine Mass. AMDG.

Hebdomadary said...

Quite. I was going to say something earlier, mildly intemperate as usual, but thought better of it. For one thing, the words "is no longer abrogated" worried me, but on second thought I realized that these were Torelli of Il Giornale's words reporting on the comments on the document, not those of the document itself. Let's just see what Christmas brings. Just think though, kids, there will surely be a Papal celebration in the offing to demonstrate the application of the document...wouldn't you think? Maybe we'll even get to open a present before Christmas!

Christ-mas is com-ing,
the doc-u-ment stands pat!
Lets put the thing to bed and say
"That's that!"...

But I still counsel patience, even in the face of fast approaching Gaudete Sunday!

Hebdomadary said...

That last post was in response to Mack a couple of posts earlier, but I should have written,

"...lets put the thing to WORK
and say "That's That!""

But I think you get the idea!

humboldt said...

It is specious to say that something is no longer "abolished", because this would imply that the rite would have to be reintroduced, when in reality the rite has been in practice already. I think the most logical thing would be to declare that the rite was never abolished, nor that this was the intention neither of the II Vatican Council nor of Pope Paul VI, although the latter would be very hard to believe. AMDG.

n said...

Interesting that:

- under 30 (or 50) people, no permission would be needed for a 'private' Mass.

- over 30 (or 50) would need coordination with the bishop but he has to then allow it as the document (hopefully) will call for.

Nice strategic planning!

humboldt said...

Hebdomadary, I posted my last comment after reading your last posting. Obviously I agree with your incensed and I do join in prayer for an end to this sterile dispute about the Tridentine Liturgy. AMDG.

The Byzantine Rambler said...

No word on the Lectionary and Calendar?

PMcGrath said...

I still dunno about this.

If they can't "deny," but still can "regulate" -- sorry, in this context, the ability to regulate means the ability to deny.

The will of Mahony, Brown, Liebknecht et al. is to totally suppress Tradition. If they can find a way to do it under the new regulations, they will.

The HF needs vigorously to denounce those Bishops who worked like Hercules to suppress the heartfelt desires of thousands for the Tridentine Mass. Preferably by name.

Trinity said...

The long awaited future of Catholicism is almost here. The pews will continue to empty in the novus ordo masses but will fill in the tridentine rite masses.

God has used the ugliness of the innovations in the novus ordo to acheive a return to reverence beauty and mystery in the mass. The youth have driven this change and will continue to do so.

God Bless Pope Benedict!!

Hebdomadary said...

Did anyone notice the blurb on CWN about the Italian National Alliance Party heading a drive to get the bishops of Liguria to allow at least one Tridentine Mass per Sunday for the culturally assimilating benefit to immigrants?! That's just fantastic!! (Timing is pretty good too!) The hits just keep on comin'!

aaron said...

it keeps coming doesn't it... oh what a party it will be at my place!

poeta said...
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poeta said...
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dcs said...

If they can't "deny," but still can "regulate" -- sorry, in this context, the ability to regulate means the ability to deny.

Very true. But consider the fact that even very strict regulations, etc., don't prevent bishops from doing more or less what they want. And even if a bishop must allow the TLM who knows what sort of priests he will assign to it or what sort of action he will take against priests who offer it in private.

The MP is not a panacaea. But I think it will be an improvement.

Ambrosius said...

dcs,

precisely. The most wicked bishops may prefer schism to Tradition. But what this will do is create an opening for the faithful in dioceses with "moderate", wimp bishops -- who may currently ban the traditional Rite almost as much out of fear of being branded a "trad" among his brother bishops as from any personal hatred for Tradition -- to be able to worship rightly, with the good priests who are out there, without the Bishop really having to be complicit or involved. Right now, if a Bishop were to allow an indult, he may get disinvited to the nice reception at the next USCCB meeting; but if he can say, "ah, but the MP ties my hands!" then he can keep walking his broad path but not drag everyone in his diocese with him along it. So, for many, even if not for all, the situation will be much improved.

Hebdomadary said...

Lets wait and see what it says...don't give way now to skepticism! Just keep petitioning Our Lady. Remember that success is assured in the long run, look at how far we've come in the past twenty years. The only question is how much of a boost can we get from a present action. Be optimistic...it's CHRIS'MAS d***it!! (kidding!) But seriously, it's going out way. Large trees take time to begin to fall, and each chop makes only a small difference to the trunk. Trust me, one day we'll make the world's biggest Christmas tree out of this Giant Sequoia!!

Dust I Am said...

Future news of the freeing of the old Latin Mass will mean a lot of curiosity in the secular news media about existing and soon-to-be-existing Latin Mass communities in various dioceses around the country.

Traditional Catholics should plan to make the most of the situation when the news is finally released. Call your local newspapers and and make good quotable comments.

If you do this, remember that the audience of local newspaper readers includes mostly Protestants and non-believers. Let them be intrigued by quotes from traditional Catholics pleased with the Papal decision--even if it is only a start directed to restoring the Church.

Dust I Am said...

Future news of the freeing of the old Latin Mass will mean a lot of curiosity in the secular news media about existing and soon-to-be-existing Latin Mass communities in various dioceses around the country.

Traditional Catholics should plan to make the most of the situation when the news is finally released. Call your local newspapers and and make good quotable comments.

If you do this, remember that the audience of local newspaper readers includes mostly Protestants and non-believers. Let them be intrigued by quotes from traditional Catholics pleased with the Papal decision--even if it is only a start directed to restoring the Church.

Dust I Am said...

Future news of the freeing of the old Latin Mass will mean a lot of curiosity in the secular news media about existing and soon-to-be-existing Latin Mass communities in various dioceses around the country.

Traditional Catholics should plan to make the most of the situation when the news is finally released. Call your local newspapers and and make good quotable comments.

If you do this, remember that the audience of local newspaper readers includes mostly Protestants and non-believers. Let them be intrigued by quotes from traditional Catholics pleased with the Papal decision--even if it is only a start directed to restoring the Church.

PMcGrath said...

After giving this some thought, the 30-or-50 limit could be VERY good or VERY bad, depending on whether that limit is 30 per PARISH or 30 per DIOCESE. The former is very good, the latter is very bad.

Let's use the Diocese of Orange, the home of Bp. Tod "No Neelin'" Brown, as an example.

If it's only 30 per DIOCESE, Bp. No Neelin can say, "Hey, I'm already in compliance! I've already provided them a place for the TradMass. It's at a historic place, for heaven's sake! [the San Juan Capistrano mission -- FYI] Of course, it's hours away from most places, and it only seats 150 people when 800 want to attend -- but I'm in compliance!"

However, if it's 30-50 per PARISH, it's a completely different story. If we're reading things right, the MP will COMPEL the bishop to allow the TLM at that parish. They can't be shunted off to a mission church hours away, or to a mausoleum chapel (which is the case in San Diego, as Gerald of "Closed Cafeteria" reports).

Now let's say you get five parishes with 100 people each who demand their rights for the TLM at their parish. This will compel "No Neelin" to do one of three things:

1. Regularize an SSPX priest for them.
2. Bring in an FSSP or ICKSP priest for them.
3. Train one of the local priests for them.

None of which he wants to do, because No Neelin's goal is to suppress Tradition at all costs, MP or no-MP.

Again, assuming that the MP will take this course, getting the TLM onto more and more parish schedules makes Tradition visible. Others -- who have only known the N.O. -- will have to notice it. And people will begin to realize the Haugen-Hassified N.O. Mass is liturgical crap! They will demand the beauty of the TLM.

But it all hinges on whether the demand level is diocesan or parochial, as explained above.

dcs said...

After giving this some thought, the 30-or-50 limit could be VERY good or VERY bad, depending on whether that limit is 30 per PARISH or 30 per DIOCESE. The former is very good, the latter is very bad.

Yes, it will be interesting to see how this might work out in practice. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Stu said...

After giving this some thought, the 30-or-50 limit could be VERY good or VERY bad, depending on whether that limit is 30 per PARISH or 30 per DIOCESE. The former is very good, the latter is very bad.

It will be VERY good regardless. No matter what there will be individuals who will try to hinder this movement. Let them try. Things might be moving slow from our perspective but this is but a large boulder beginning its fall down a steep hill. Momentum will prevail if only because of the finger that started it in motion.

Vivat Iesus.

Stu

Brian Kopp said...

Momentum will prevail if only because of the finger that started it in motion.

Vivat Iesus.


Amen!

poeta said...

"So, for many, even if not for all, the situation will be much improved."

Why, don't those mean the same thing??

:^)

Brian Kopp said...

"Catholic News Agency" finally broke the mainstream Catholic media blackout on the Ecclesia Dei meeting (two days later...):

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=8274

Jordan Potter said...

Do CWN and EWTN count as mainstream Catholic news media? This is from Tuesday (it’s now late Thursday where I live):

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=74204

Brian Kopp said...

"Do CWN and EWTN count as mainstream Catholic news media? This is from Tuesday (it’s now late Thursday where I live)”

EWTN does not write its own news stories, it simply posts articles from CWN, CNA, ZENIT, and VIS. EWTN simply reposted the CWN report.

With the exception of the conservative CWN, none of the other mainstream Catholic media outlets have touched this till a full TWO DAYS after the meeting.

Jordan Potter said...

Hi Kopp/AC!

“EWTN does not write its own news stories, it simply posts articles from CWN, CNA, ZENIT, and VIS. EWTN simply reposted the CWN report.”

Obviously. That’s why I gave the EWTN link but referred to both CWN and EWTN. It’s because EWTN has picked up the story from CWN, thereby spreading the story beyond CWN’s readership.

As for CNA taking two days to report on the story, that sounds about right for CNA’s timeliness. They’re always slow to update their website with new stories.

“CWN is the ONLY Catholic media outlet that reported on this up till this afternoon. With the exception of the conservative CWN, none of the other mainstream Catholic media outlets have touched this till a full TWO DAYS after the meeting.”

Except for EWTN, that is. . . .

Jordan Potter said...

Sorry, I should have said, "Hi Kopp/Brian." Got a little confused in following the cross-posting of comments from Fr. Zuhlsdorf's weblog to here . . . .

Dust I Am said...

News of the freeing of the old Latin Mass will mean a lot of curiosity in the secular news media about existing and soon-to-be-existing Latin Masses in various dioceses around the country.

Traditional Catholics should plan to make the most of the opportunity for publicity when the news is finally released. Call your local newspapers and and make good quotable comments.

Remember that the audience of local newspaper readers includes mostly Protestants and non-believers. Let them be intrigued by quotes from traditional Catholics pleased with the Papal decision.

As for those dioceses where the Latin Mass is not yet offered, a traditional Catholic needs to speak up and present a face and name in the public media so that others who want the Latin Mass know whom to contact. Gotta find those 30 (50) people!

Ambrosius said...

Poeta,

I laughed out loud!

Hebdomadary said...

It might be worth remembering that nothing has actually happened yet, and that all speculation is for naught until the document is publshed. News reportage don't mean diddly! Not to rain on the parade or anything...but lets stay in the moment and keep our eyes on the ball!

Cerimoniere said...

As did I. See how the glorious sunshine of the Holy Father's penetrating intellect can raise the standard of discussion even in such lowly places as this, that now even we can see that two distinct words are not synonyms!

Brian Kopp said...

Jordan Potter said...
"Sorry, I should have said, "Hi Kopp/Brian." Got a little confused in following the cross-posting of comments from Fr. Zuhlsdorf's weblog to here"

LOL.

--Brian Kopp

Hebdomadary said...

Question: Just looking at the VIS bulletin for today, which announces the papal celebrations, and I'm just wondering about the terminology. At most of the celebrations during Christmastide the Holy Father is "presiding" at mass, even in the Sistine. But at the Christmas Midnight Mass in the Vatican Basilica, it says the Holy Father "will celebrate mass". Is there anything "Tridentine" in that terminology as distinct from the rest of the seasonal celebrations? Would tht there were.

AmemusAthanasium said...

I think the restrictions in numbers (minimum of 30 faithful) are in themselves ridiculous. WHO will be these faithful? Must they be members of the given parish? Or may they also be from other parishes or dioceses? And what about a private Mass with attendance of 0 or up to 30? Are these forbidden too? Missae privatae are allowed already as far as I know.

Clear words should follow, not instructions once again ignored by the modern bishops.

And the wording "extraordinary" does not please me.

The SSPX will need the Personal Prelature and Military Ordinariate possibilities provided and promised by Cardinal Oddi in 1991. Complete independence as a structure, but within the Latin Church of course (a sui juris Church like for the Greek Catholics or the Syro-Malankara Christians is impossible).

AmemusAthanasium said...

The SSPX considers itself part of the Roman Church fully, so it will not accept a set-aside status. And no low church things will be accepted by them. There must be in Rome the will to reinstate liturgical AND doctrinal Tradition and traditions. Nothing more.

Do not forget that the excommunications also must be declared lifted or not applying by the Holy See, for effective regularisation of the canonical situation of the St Pius X Fraternity to take place. This will not happen before the so-called excommunication latae sententiae decree is declared lifted.

And yes, doctrinal discussions and an agreeable formula must take place. The position of Bishop Williamson, that Rome forbids the new rite now directly as having been heretical or invalid and that Vatican II was full of heresies, will never be achieved. Pastoral, practical and actional problems and errors may be conceded under Benedict XVI, e.g. by Cardinal Stickler and others who are real Roman Catholic prelates. But Vatican II will not be sent into the eternal pit of fire as heretical. Possibly its effects and orientation will be said to have been a bit naive and its effects to have been negative after all. But nothing more...

Spinal Cyst said...

The news is also in the Radio Vatican website, at least in the portuguese site: here.

humboldt said...

Spinal Cyst, thank you for bringing this up. May God almighty clear the mind and will of Benedict XVI, to solve in a just and charitable way the problematic situation of the Tridentine Litury in the Catholic Church. AMDG.