Rorate Caeli

What is there in a name?


























+Crux Australis+ said...

Extraordinario post..!

+Crux Australis+

Anonymous said...


Geoffrey said...

This seems a bit...I don't know, not humble? I mean, we aren't going to get anywhere by insulting others and abusing the meaning of the terms "ordinary" and "extraordinary." Abusing language got the Church into a mess in the first place. I really do not see any other purpose of this post than to gloat. I admire this site because it usually provides informative, balanced articles for the traditionalist community, but this post has no substance other than to gloat and vent. I hope this is not the tone I can expect to hear upon the reception of the motu proprio, i.e. bragging and mocking on all sides.

humboldt said...

:) LOL, good shot.

Anonymous said...

well...that about sums it up. Nice post and a picture IS worth a thousand words...

Andrew said...

Geoffrey, I suspect New Catholic is full of joy for the motu propio, and it just can't be subdued!

Tinsley said...

There is know way you can compare the two.

Anonymous said...

Beautiful pictures, and certainly an interesting, if not quite fair, comparison.

I wonder if someone here could speak to something about whihc I have been wondering.

I often read criticism of tradition-minded priests celebrating the Ordinary Rite (usually from progressive quarters,) that they elevate the host "too high," as if there were some specific rules about this.
ANyone familiar enough with Novus Ordo rubrics to comment?

Anonymous said...

It's very helpful to see the two side by side. I personally think the modernist butchery of Holy Mass is a travesty of unspeakable proportion, and those butchers should be laughed to scorn.

milanta said...

This comparison is not good. Why dón't you put photos of the New Rite celebrated with beauty and faith?

Anonymous said...

geoffrey, don't be such a square pants! Here's one more image for you:

these are tough times, and so what if traditionalists are a bit gleeful about the pending motu. We've been castigated, subjugated, shot-down, belittled and, even, placed into indult "reservations" for so many years, why can't we have a poke of fun?

Here is what Christopher Ferrera and Thomas Woods said about our situation hitherto in their excellent book, The Great Fascade:

"In sum, neo-Catholics gladly defend and practice a form of Catholicism that would have horrified any Pope before 1960. To appreciate this, one need only imagine Pope St. Pius X attending what today's neo-Catholic would consider a 'reverent Novus Ordo Mass," with women, their heads uncovered, serving as 'lectors', altar girls assisting the priest and handling the sacred vessels, the priest facing the people over a table, horrendous and doctrinally suspect vernacular translations proclaimed entirely in a loud voice, ecumenically oriented 'Eucharistic prayers' that omit every reference to the Mass as propitiatory sacrifice, banal hymns and even pop music, the handshake (or hug) of peace, Communion in the hand, and lay men and women distributing the Sacred Host and Precious Blood to standing communicants. How would St. Pius X react to this spectacle? Obviously, he would react as traditionalists do; and, as Pope, he would order it to cease immediately. But for the neo-Catholic, the same spectacle poses no problem whatever, and in his view of the situation calls only for 'obedience' to the ruinous innovations that produced it." pg. 21

"Meanwhile, the Vatican does next to nothing about the doctrinal dissent and sexual scandal that riddle the Catholic hierarchy, yet is quite careful to monitor the traditional seminaries of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter for any signs of deviancy from postconciliar correctness. At the same time, traditionalists are herded into reservations known as 'indult Mass center', where the received and approved ancient liturgy of the Roman Rite is treated as if it were a strain of anthrax that must be contained at all costs." pg. 394.

Let the trads have a little fun, friend. Even if you're not a traditionalist, let the trads gloat a bit on this wonderful site. Nothing here is out-of-the-ordinary as far as rightful protest and glad triumph (though winning this small battle is just the beginning of the war) after being kicked-around for so many years by proud, egotistical modernists.

Brian said...

I'm looking for more information about Cardinal Arinze's position on the Motu Proprio. The leader of SSPX says Arinze supports the position of the German Bishops, 'contrary to what he says in public'. I don't want to believe it. Does anyone else have any information about Arinze's position?

Fr X said...

As a priest from a rather moderate English diocese, the pictures of the Ordinary usage, seem to be really what happens in many parishes, not mine though! The trend until now has always been to dumb down or simplify, I hope the MP will change this. I am sure it always the trend "ad occidentem" celebration.

I am sure that many priests will find some way of celebrating the Extra-Ordinary usage, as badly as the Ordinary. From the laymen's position, the advantage is it won't be seen.

Fr. John said...

These pictures are not whacked out examples of the Novus Ordo compared with the Traditional Rite. The Novus Ordo pics seem for the most part middle of the road. I admit that most places that have the Traditional Rite cannot offer a Solemn High Mass as regular faire but when you get right down to it as they say " a picture speaks a thousand words"

Justin said...


Anonymous said...

sorry, I meant to send the photo from the link, supra, and not, necessarily, the commentary (which I have not read carefully, and cannot advocate at this point). Here is the photo, alone, that I meant to send, which I agree is a travesty of the post-conciliar Church:

Anonymous said...

I just heard the PERFECT joke on Catholic Answers Forums regarding "Extraordinary"....

"Hopefully the Tridentine Mass becomes as ordinary in the Latin Rite as the extra-ordinary ministers are in the ordinary rite."

I would love to take credit but I didnt come up with that.

Anonymous said...

Great Post !

Red Cardigan said...

I'm sorry to have to disagree.

But everything that man does is ordinary, whether it involves dark wood, red velvet, gold furnishings or not. The fittingness of offering such things as part of our worship of God is not in question; but let us not fall into pride and think that anything we do is more than ordinary.

This, this alone, is extraordinary:

No red velvet can compare to the scarlet drops of His Precious Blood; no gold chalice is more than dross beside the nails piercing His hands and feet; no chant can offer more solemn worship than the sobs of the faithful followers who even then did not desert Him; nothing we do at all can compare to His glorious Sacrifice which we partake in whether we attend Mass at a Novus Ordo, TLM, Eastern Rite Catholic or other valid rite.

Let us not lose sight of our human inability to be "extraordinary" in comparison with the extraordinary nature of Christ's love for us and His willing suffering and death on the Cross.

James said...

milanta, many of the 'extraordinary' photos could, in fact, be from new order masses.

New Catholic said...

Calm down, "dissenting comments"! Many of you have probably not been reading this weblog for a long time: just enjoy the quietness with Catholic sense of humor before the storm.

Since we are about to enter a phase in which "extraordinary" may mean simply "rarely applicable" in many dioceses, we would like to remind all that it may also mean remarkable and impressive.

None of the pictures was chosen to be demeaning. As a clerical commentator has noticed, they contain a good reflection of practices in the Ordinary form of the Roman Rite for the immense majority of the world's Catholics.

New Catholic said...

Last anonymous: I agree with most of your comment and actually thank you for it, but its conclusion could be considered too aggressive, which is why it had to be removed. If you wish to repost it...

Anonymous said...

The English writer Jane Grigson put it very well:

“We have more than enough masterpieces; what we need is a better standard of ordinariness.”

She was talking about food, but the saying applies to the liturgy as well.

Anonymous said...

Goeffrey - this is clearly a light-hearted post. It has nothing to do with bragging, mocking, abusing language etc. You're playing into the hands of those who categorise traditionalists as narrow minded, humourless, holier-than-thou characters. One of the great things about Catholicism is that we ARE allowed a sense of houmour about these things unlike our Muslim brothers! Lighten up!

Johanesjoy said...

I've read about it, i've seen the picture's , and I LOVE IT!!!
But I've never actualy been in a Latin Mass (I wasn't even born at that time)...
So I can't wait to have the Latin Mass.

New Catholic said...

By the way, not all of the pictures of the Traditional Rite ("Extraordinary Form") are in "glorious" settings: the third and fourth pictures are, in fact, two examples of missions in Africa. The third, a concelebration in a much more "comfortable" building than the fourth, a simple Mass in the "Extraordinary form" in an extremely humble FSSP mission chapel in Nigeria. Yet, none of the (extraordinarily few) sour commentators above seemed even to notice this.

Ma Tucker said...

True beauty flows from perfect Love. When we are aware of this Love we naturaly respond with love and beauty.

Simon-Peter Vickers-Buckley said...

I see no gloatin' and no ventin': Merely a side-by side comparision.


The pictures of the NO Mass are middle of the should see what goes on in "my" diocese. Perhaps some of you are the lucky ones who enjoy that most remarkable of creatures, the Tasmanian Wolf of the rite, the "reverent done-by-the-book- Novus Ordo."

Well, that's nice for you. The rest of us are stuck with dross convinced that our children, if not actually being harmed, are not being helped.


"Hopefully the Tridentine Mass becomes as ordinary in the Latin Rite as the extra-ordinary ministers are in the ordinary rite."

Yeah, I think about everyone thought that one up at the same time.

Woody Jones said...

While there are a number of places where celebration of the Pauline Rite are conducted with more solemnity and reverence than the photos here, and I try to find such places and assist at Mass there, you may be sure, but I have noticed that in many places, and with certain religious congregations, even those thought to be "conservative", the tendency has been to strip the liturgy of all traditional surroundings, such as statues, traditionally-shaped Tabernacles, candles in the traditional alignment (notice how in many places, including in S. Pietro, the candles are arranged at an angle on the altar, or in a line on the sides), vestments in plain cloth or with minimal decoration, etc.

To be fair to the folks who like this, I think they must be trying for the "noble simplicity" that Sacrosanctum Concilium called for, but of course the result has simply been a deterioration of reverence for, and belief in, the Real Presence (think how many times you see people today, especially younger ones, waltz past the Tabernacle without so much as a bow of the head, much less a genuflection).

Let us pray that the efforts of the Holy Father to introduce reverence and decorum in the celebration of the new Mass as well as fostering more liberal use of the older, will prevail. May it be soon.

Tom S. said...

Anonymous above: I love the Jane Grigson quote.

Great comparison, New Catholic. It just goes to show that you don't need a glorious edifice to have a glorious mass. What is needed is focus and perspective - one that goes back more than 30 years.

Iosephus said...

Great post!

Anonymous said...

Caveat - May we be dedicated to NOT allowing the Latin mass to become "ordinary". My own memories are of just that happening as well in the past (perhaps we had to learn that we really don't know what we have until we lose it); terrible voices chanting unfamiliar Gregorian as much as a distraction as other stuff today; familiarity breeding obvious contempt by celebrants breezing through as if to just get "another one" over with.

Heaven on earth still resides in the hearts of the faithful and in their prayer from those hearts of free will.

Anonymous said...

It's a bit ridiculous for some people who have posted to complain that this is not a fair representation of the Novus Ordo. What a violation of valid judgement!!! Actually these comparison photos are right on the money!! It is a totally fair and honest comparision between the Novus Ordo make-it-up-as-we-go-along stuff, and the timeless beauty of the Tridentine Latin Mass.
With the coming of the Motu Proprio, I believe that in very short order we will see much less of the Novus Ordo nonsense.

Anonymous said...

My biggest fear is that when the TLM becomes more widespread, it might come to resemble the "ordinary" more and more as it will be celebrated by priests who aren't nearly as concerned about beauty and traditional liturgy as those of us who have worked so hard for this day to come.

Anonymous said...

Those novus ordo masses are typical of those found in the United States. I find no problem with this post.

I also don't think it's gloating. I think it's about time people face the truth about this.

Anonymous said...

We must simply keep praying that more and more of our Catholic people come to appreciate this Mass as they experience the reverance in which it is offered.
Thank God that Pope Benedict has once again allowed it to be offered by any Priest with the solemnity it so rightfully deserves.

Anonymous said...

New Catholic,

your picture posts are an honest depiction of reality. And that is why I find this post so humorous! It's the truth, and many are catching on. There is great delight in that realization.

God bless.

finegan said...

Folks, over the next few weeks, you're going to hear some of the most ridiculous criticisms of the TLM that one can imagine! Sadly, for many Catholics, this whole matter comes down to "I can't understand Latin," or "The Old Mass is too boring," or "I can't see what's going on when the 'Priest has his back to us.'"

We raised at least two generations of people who have virtually no concept of the Mass, Catholic doctrine, etc. Sure, there are exceptions (just look at the folks who post ont this blog!), but overall, we're about to see just how much damage the last 40 years have wrought!

Bring on the Motu Proprio -- we have a lot of work ahead of us!

BTW: I thought the post by anonymous concerning Pope St. Pius X's reaction to the NO was dead on!

tim said...

My church is there! St. Joseph's Topeka, KS!
<3 TLM

Anonymous said...

I can't say that I'm a huge supporter of the Tridentine Mass, but this post has a very good point. Although the Novus Ordo Mass is very often celebrated with beauty and dignity, you'd never see the Tridentine celebrated with such informality and lack of respect as seen in some of these photos.

Ginny said...

No Doubt there is no comparison, Extraordinary is Exceptional.
Ordinary is most definately, Ususal!

Great Compare and Contrast!
It sure says it all in the pictures!!!

j hughes dunphy said...

Dear Rorate:
This is one of the most authoritatively orthodox Catholic websites, due largely to the holiness of purpose and "gravitas" of its founders.

Remember the good ol' days, when Catholic Cergy i.e bishops, priests, and popes projected this seriousness in all they did to teach us how important the task of salvation of souls truly was. Where is it today?

Look at these magnificient pictures and commentary on this website that are indicative as "anonymous" said: 'these are tough times in which we live'--times when this "gravitas" in especially the liturgy has been abandoned.

Face the facts: this liturgical war is not over, even with the "motu proprio" for the real problem is not the "Missa Latina Tridentina" but the "Novus Ordo Missae" which virtually all the astute commentary on this truly remarkable Catholic website testifies to.

It is all about efficacious prayer to Almighty God and this is what the Tridentine Mass always projects, having organically developed from the Upper Room and Christ's own Last Supper. This is what has made the Catholic Church so utterly awesome: its faithful Tradition. But have we been faithful in preserving this Tradition and the "gravitas" of what is going on in the "Novus Ordo Missae" with its trivializing tendencies of the sacred for the last forty years: communion in the hand, no genuflecting, sermons full of 'lovism' that never mention sin, temptations to purity with females on the altar indecently attired, facing the people in worship and not Almighty God, and removal of tabernacles.

This "Novus Ordo" levitas has emptied the churches. Thank you for this reminder, New Catholic, of where we really are!
j hughes dunphy

Anonymous said...

desde argentina jujuy un enorme saludo a la gente de rorate caeli... y estas cosas "ordinarias" tambien suceden en donde vivo.. los altares con chicas, monjas que no parecen monjas, curas sin sotanas y que cuando dan misa se hacen los graciosos o simpáticos, altares que ahora son mesas, iglesias con forma de circo, con shows de musica adentro... por cierto nuestro obispo viene de europa... ¿será por eso?

rev fr lw gonzales said...

Saint Pius V; continue praying for us. May the Mass of the Ages one day Reign again as Holy Mother Church rights the course of the Barque.

Alessandro Martini said...

Here are other pics from a "ordinary" Mass, realy a "country Mass".

Anonymous said...

Nothing but discord is achieved by comparing these photographs of the celebration of the Novus Ordo and Tridentine Rite. If you have any sense of Eucharistic reality you would not have posted these pictures. To have done so almost amounts to blasphemy. Both rites are of equal validity and sustain the life of the faithful. If pictorial warfare like this continues you will be in the Devil's hands. Divide and rule is one of his specialities.

finegan said...

Anonymous wrote

"Nothing but discord is achieved by comparing these photographs of the celebration of the Novus Ordo and Tridentine Rite. If you have any sense of Eucharistic reality you would not have posted these pictures.

Eucharistic reality? How about starting with the total lack of approved rubics and respect for the Blessed Sacrament we see in many of the NO Mass photos? And the masses we see here are not some far-out examples dredged up to make a point; they look pretty typical of the Masses many of us attend.

This must be a pretty uncomfortable time to be a Modernist. The truth, as they say, hurts.

Scelata said...

I beg those of you thinking of this as a "war" to remember that other Christians are not enemies to be defeated but patients to be cured.
And although I have seen beautiful celebrations of the Ordinary Rite, at St John Cantius in Chicago, for instance, I fear the pictures of the Ordinary Rite are sadly typical of current American praxis.

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

Anonymous said...

"The pictures are beautiful. Unfortunately the pictures also play into the hands of those who would accuse traditionalists of too much concern for aesthetics or a sentimental attachment to the liturgy of another time."

I don't think we can't worry about what the "progressives" will think. These pictures are about a lot more than sentimentality; they demonstrate, clearly, the difference between a God-focused sacrifice and a man-centered liturgy.

I don't think anyone here is saying the Novus Ordo is not valid, but let's not abandon the Truth on the altar of political correctness.

Athanasius said...

Why is it that some do not understand offering the best to God? Why is it that some are almost offended by the fact that churches have gold and marble and glorious stone spires to proclaim to the world the greatness of our God?

So some south American village uses simple wood to make a chapel. Back in the old days, their churches still looked like churches, and they gave to Jesus Christ the best they had! If they had access to more it would have been used.

This ties in with the loss of the concept of excellence in our culture. Being the best we can be, producing the best work, producing excellence in the soul through moral perfection. How many of those who look with chagrin at the glorious Churches and the glorious Traditional Liturgy are also of the mind that those who want to be saints are trying too hard, they should just live like everyone else? How many of the same don't produce excellence in their lives?

Abel's sacrifice was intrinsically better than Cain's, even though Cain offered the simple fruit of the earth. Abel offered excellence, that which was extraordinary, and well, Cain offered the ordinary.

Anonymous said...


I hope you've said that elsewhere, because you are absolutely correct, and that message needs to be repeated again, and again...

Simon-Peter Vickers-Buckley said...

"Nothing but discord is achieved by comparing these photographs of the celebration of the Novus Ordo and Tridentine Rite. If you have any sense of Eucharistic reality you would not have posted these pictures. To have done so almost amounts to blasphemy. Both rites are of equal validity and sustain the life of the faithful. If pictorial warfare like this continues you will be in the Devil's hands. Divide and rule is one of his specialities."


"discord"..."celebration"..."sense of Eucharistic[sic] reality"..."almost amounts..."


So you've been given your marching orders: transparent.

Still trying to figure out what "Eucharistic reality" means. Is that something to do with quantum mechanics?

henry said...

Both rites are of equal validity and sustain the life of the faithful.

Having started the sentence, one ought to finish the point: Though both rites are of equal validity, they are not equally efficacious and therefore do not equally sustain the lives of the faithful.

Cacciaguida said...

What's Mitch McConnell doing in purple vestments distributing Communion?!

M. Alexander said...


And I wholeheartedly approve!

Thank you!

Michael J. Iafrate said...

3rd set of pics down, the "ordinary" wedding photo, is from my former parish in West Virginia. The set-up in the sanctuary was the same as that couple's, and with the same priest, but our liturgy was far from "ordinary." Ask anyone who sat through our 2-hour, incense filled liturgy.

Amazing that you can just Google-search some photos and judgmentally post them without knowing ANYTHING about the parish or the people involved. Nothing in the photo indicates a break from the NO rubrics.

Michael J. Iafrate said...

Sorry typed too fast...I meant to say that my wife and I celebrated our wedding liturgy in the same church, same priest, same set-up.

New Catholic said...

"Nothing in the photo indicates a break from the NO rubrics."

Exactly. An average celebration in the ordinary form of the Roman Rite.

Mary said...

I agree with Fr. John. These "Ordinary" pictures are just that ordinary. They are not that bad. If you think these are bad then you have lived a sheltered life. I mean I have seen priests jump around with bunny ears and dance on Easter. I have heard priest preach herecy saying that Christ did not perform miracles. I have seen pictures of priests wearing Barney costums during mass. I have been to masses where the priests never wear priestly garb or who never wear a collar. I have been to a church where the priest was stealing money from the Church. I have been to mass where dancers were dancing around the altar(we left). I have met a priest who would not let my brother recieve his First Holy Communion on the tongue so we had to go to another state to have a priest friend of ours provide this service. Dear Friends These pictures are definently middle of the road. We want the Pomp and Ceremony back and we want dancers and Barney out of the Church.

Mary said...
Here is a description of my home town cathedral click on the "Images" button to see pictures of this hideous structure. Las Vegas deserves this church. I will try to find a site with a picture of the rocket Jesus that graces the wall behind the altar. Here it is just scroll down a little.


Samuel Ferraro said...

The truth can be no clearer than in these photographs.