Rorate Caeli

Mass Anglican conversion?


Good news after the expected debacle: an episcopal-level minister of the "Church of England", is to "lead his fellow Anglo-Catholics from the Church of England into the Roman Catholic Church", as Damian Thompson reveals today. [UPDATE - July 9: Article written by Andrew Burnham for the Catholic Herald, which ends thus: "we ask for ways that allow us to bring our folk with us."]

The Bishop of Ebbsfleet, the Rt Rev Andrew Burnham, is to lead his fellow Anglo-Catholics from the Church of England into the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic Herald will reveal this week.

Bishop Burnham, one of two "flying bishops" in the province of Canterbury, has made a statement asking Pope Benedict XVI and the English Catholic bishops for "magnanimous gestures" that will allow traditionalists to become Catholics en masse.

He is confident that this will happen, following talks in Rome with Cardinal Levada, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and Cardinal Kasper, the Vatican's head of ecumenism. He was accompanied on his visit by the Rt Rev Keith Newton, Bishop of Richborough, the other Canterbury "flying bishop", who is expected to follow his example.

Bishop Burnham hopes that Rome will offer special arrangements whereby former Anglicans can stay worshiping in parishes under the guidance of a Catholic bishop. Most of these parishes already use the Roman liturgy, but there may be provision for Anglican prayers if churches request it.

Anglican priests who are already married will not be barred from ordination as priests, though Bishop Burnham would not be able to continue in episcopal orders, as he is married and there is an absolute bar on married bishops in the Roman and Orthodox Churches.

In his statement, Bishop Burnham explains why he is rejecting the code of practice offered to traditionalists by the General Synod last night. "How could we trust a code of practice to deliver a workable ecclesiology if every suggestion we have made for our inclusion has been turned down flat?" he asks.

"How could we trust a code of practice when those who are offering it include those who have done most to undermine and seek to revoke the code of practice in force for these last 14 years? ...

"What we must humbly ask for now is for magnanimous gestures from our Catholic friends, especially from the Holy Father, who well understands our longing for unity, and from the hierarchy of England and Wales. Most of all we ask for ways that allow us to bring our folk with us."
Welcome home, dear friends! England will forever remain Our Lady's Dowry: may the Queen of Martyrs guide you as you reach out for the firmness of the Rock established by the Lord. The words of the Holy Father in the accompanying letter to Summorum Pontificum seem quite appropriate also regarding this matter:

Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden. This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to enable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew. I think of a sentence in the Second Letter to the Corinthians, where Paul writes: "Our mouth is open to you, Corinthians; our heart is wide. You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections. In return … widen your hearts also!" (2 Cor 6:11-13). Paul was certainly speaking in another context, but his exhortation can and must touch us too, precisely on this subject. Let us generously open our hearts and make room for everything that the faith itself allows.

53 comments:

Anonymous said...

I hope and pray that the English Bishops heed the Pope in this instance, however much dead weight they may have so far proved themselves to be with respect to the usus antiquior.

Anonymous said...

Just what kind of numbers are we looking at? Not that it matters, because even one convert is priceless...

Benedict said...

"Anglican priests who are already married will not be barred from ordination as priests, though Bishop Burnham would not be able to continue in episcopal orders, as he is married and there is an absolute bar on married bishops in the Roman and Orthodox Churches."

A brave man. Sacrificing as noble an Office as an Episcopate is no small act. Bishop Burnham's devotion is inspiring.

Antonio said...

There are seven "Anglican Use" parishes in USA uner the "Pastoral Provision".
Perhaps something like that can be made in UK.
Also there is the whole TAC (Traditional Anglican Communion) issue.
I think we will have WONDERFUL news very soon.
And today even the Council for Christian Unity said "it's over". We are in a different phase of ecumenism. And it looks much better...

Athelstane said...

As always, we wait upon the details of any deal. But even so, my heart cannot help but leap and say: "Te Deum Laudamus!"

Anonymous said...

COMMUNIQUE ON RESULTS OF A VOTE IN ANGLICAN CHURCH

VATICAN CITY, 8 JUL 2008 (VIS) - Given below is the text of a communique released late this morning by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, concerning recent events within the Anglican Communion.

"We have regretfully learned the news of the Church of England vote that paves the way for the introduction of legislation which will lead to the ordaining of women to the episcopacy.

"The Catholic position on the issue has been clearly expressed by Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II. Such a decision signifies a break with the apostolic tradition maintained by all of the Churches since the first millennium and is, therefore, a further obstacle to reconciliation between the Catholic Church and the Church of England.

"This decision will have consequences on the future of dialogue, which had up until now borne fruit, as Cardinal Kasper clearly explained when on 5 June 2006 he spoke to all of the bishops of the Church of England at the invitation of the Archbishop of Canterbury.

"The Cardinal has been invited once again to express the Catholic position at the next Lambeth Conference at the end of July".

CON-UC/ANGLICAN ORDINATIONS/KASPER VIS 080708 (200)

angelo said...

It is appropriate at this time to quote the paternal words of HH Pope Pius XI. The following quotes are taken from His papal encyclical, Mortlium Animos:

"Let Our separated children, therefore, draw nigh to the Apostolic See, set up in the City which Peter & Paul, Princes of the Apostles, consecrated by their blood, to the See which is "the root & womb whence issues the Church of God (Cyp. Ep. 48 ad Cornelium, 3). Would that the happy lot, denied to so many of Our Predecessors, might at last be Ours, to embrace with Fatherly affection those children whose unhappy separation from Us We now deplore. Would that God Our Savior, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth (I Tim. 2:4), might hear Our humble prayer and vouchsafe to recall to the unity of the Church all that are gone astray."

"Therefore, since the foundation of Charity is Faith pure & inviolate, it is chiefly by the bond of one Faith that the disciples of Christ are to be united.

MORTALIUM ANIMOS
On Fostering True Religious Unity

Encyclical Letter of the
Supreme Pontiff
Pope Pius XI

Anonymous said...

As I said at Father Phillips blog so will I say here:

I sincerely hope the Holy Father permits the Anglo-Catholics to retain the usage of the Anglican Missal which is an excellent translation of the Traditional Latin Missal from 1955 I believe. I am of the firm opinion that if we had simply used a missal like the Anglican Missal with it's excellent translations of the Gregorian rite, we would never have needed the Novus Ordo. As an addendum, the Anglican breviary would be an excellent addition to any Traditionalist Catholic home as it too is a highly accurate and literate translation of the 1955 Roman breviary. I have a copy and can vouch for the beautiful prose. So please, we beg thee dear Holy Father...DO NOT FOIST THE NOVUS ORDO ON THE ANGLO CATHOLICS!!!!

Greg Hessel
Traditionalist in Arlington Diocese

Pascendi said...

Having just returned from England, I can honestly say it will be a breath of fresh air. The local church (at least the diocese of Arundel/Brighton) is truly in grave spiritual crisis.

Long-Skirts said...

Welcome, Anglicans, to THE GARDEN!

EVERLASTING BOUQUET
The garden, the garden, everything, the garden.
Where born we live to die with pardon.

Holy Water
Is the blood,
Streaming through our stems
Since bud.

Sacrament,
Fertilizes,
When full bloomed
The world despises.

Penanced petals
Prepped to fall,
Garden requiem
Does call

Other souls,
In soil His seed,
To the gardened
Blossomed breed.

Incensing all
With perfumed prayer
As gardener trims
And prunes with care.

For winter comes
And colors fade
But scent...can't die...
It leaves as bade.

While once bloomed plant
Withers no sound.
A mulch for soil
And seeds in ground.

'Till back with scent
On harvest day!
Together forever...
Everlasting bouquet.

Anonymous said...

Deo gratias!
I also have and use the Anglican Breviary at home, every day. It is one of the best things I have ever bought.

Given the nonsense coming from the USCCB, I wish we could replace the Novus Ordo with texts taken striaght from the Anglican missal as well!

Anonymous said...

Cardinal Walter Kasper does not want any conversions...

He wants religious dialog only...

Flabellum said...

From 'Apostolicae Curae'
(Promulgated September 18, 1896 by Pope Leo XIII )

38. Perhaps until now aiming at the greater perfection of Christian virtue, and searching more devoutly the divine Scriptures, and redoubling the fervor of their prayers, they have, nevertheless, hesitated in doubt and anxiety to follow the voice of Christ, which so long has interiorly admonished them. Now they see clearly whither He in His goodness invites them and wills them to come. In returning to His one only fold, they will obtain the blessings which they seek, and the consequent helps to salvation, of which He has made the Church the dispenser, and, as it were, the constant guardian and promoter of His redemption amongst the nations. Then, indeed, "They shall draw waters in joy from the fountains of the Savior", His wondrous Sacraments, whereby His faithful souls have their sins truly remitted, and are restored to the friendship of God, are nourished and strengthened by the heavenly Bread, and abound with the most powerful aids for their eternal salvation. May the God of peace, the God of all consolation, in His infinite tenderness, enrich and fill with all these blessings those who truly yearn for them.

39. We wish to direct our exhortation and our desires in a special way to those who are ministers of religion in their respective communities. They are men who from their very office take precedence in learning and authority, and who have at heart the glory of God and the salvation of souls. Let them be the first in joyfully submitting to the divine call and obey it, and furnish a glorious example to others. Assuredly, with an exceeding great joy, their Mother, the Church, will welcome them, and will cherish with all her love and care those whom the strength of their generous souls has, amidst many trials and difficulties, led back to her bosom. Nor could words express the recognition which this devoted courage will win for them from the assemblies of the brethren throughout the Catholic world, or what hope or confidence it will merit for them before Christ as their Judge, or what reward it will obtain from Him in the heavenly kingdom! And we, ourselves, in every lawful way, shall continue to promote their reconciliation with the Church in which individuals and masses, as we ardently desire, may find so much for their imitation. In the meantime, by the tender mercy of the Lord our God, we ask and beseech all to strive faithfully to follow in the path of divine grace and truth.

Anonymous said...

This is fantastic news!!

is there anyway of contacting the good Bishop to assure him of our prayers and encouragement?

Hugh

Ione said...

I think the English Catholic bishops will be the greatest impediment to this process. Many of them have Anglican attitudes in governance.

How much longer can the Anglican communion last? A church started by a King's worldy whim!

Anonymous said...

...is there anyway of contacting the good Bishop to assure him of our prayers and encouragement?

He's NOT a bishop. He's a layman. But we can and must pray for reunion and true conversion. Only that will do justice to the blood spilled by the glorious English martyrs.

Paul in the GNW said...

Welcome! and Thanks Be to GOD! All Anglicans, I am praying for you. Especially I pray for those who may now start on a journey towards unity with the Church. I believe it will be hard for many of you. I want you to know, that myself and most Catholics wish you well and welcome you.

God Bless

Paul in the GNW

Anonymous said...

Lucky this is happening under Benedict XVI's pontificate! He has been very zealous for the conversion of souls.

Anonymous said...

I see three juridical possibilties here, as follows:

1. The Pope could form the hoped-for exempt international and personal diocese or apostolic administration for the Gregorian Rite, headed by a bishop of his choosing.

The ministers of these new converts, having been ordained priests, would then be incorporated into that structure as a pious union of a society of apostolic life. They would have the option of celebrating the Gregorian Mass in Latin or in liturgical English in accordance with the English Missal. They would also be allowed to keep extra-Mass Anglican texts, such as their breviary. The international structure would incorporate the I.B.P., the Transalpine Redemptorists and others, and would invite the S.S.P.X to join as well. Outside England, Latin alone would be used. This is the option I favour.

2. Rome could reconcile the TAC by accepting its recent submission except as regards married bishops (they have signalled that they will accept this). This new group would then simply join a reconciled uniate TAC. In England, they would mostly use the English Missal, which is the Gregorian Mass rendered in liturgical English. Outside England, they would mostly use the Anglican Missal, which is a fusion of the Gregorian Mass and bits and pieces from the Anglican prayerbooks, also all in liturgical English. They would then be joining an international structure of twelve national churches under Rome. The advantage is that the Third World Anglicans could then join in as well, bringing one-third of the world's Anglicans into Catholicism.

3. The third option, and the one Kasper will try to foist on us, is to organise these converts into a prelature which uses the English Missal and put them under an English Catholic bishop, separated from the rest of us and with few prospects for joining us or bringing in Third World Anglicans. He would like to confine them to England: divide and conquer.

A Note: Forget the Anglican Use in the U.S.A. These new converts don't want it and rightly so. It has that vomit-inducing Novus Ordo Offetory: Blessed are You, Lord God of all creation thingy.

Another note: Dont' confuse the English Missal with the Anglican Missal. The English Missal is simply the Gregorian Mass--our Mass-rendered in beautiful liturgical English. It is used by most of these coming converts and has been used by Anglo-Catholics in England for some time now. Outside England, however, the Anglican Missal seems to be preferred. It is NOT our Gregorian Mass. It is a fusion of our Mass with some lovely and very beautiful non-Protestant prayers from the Anglian prayerbooks. I believe that it is preferred by the TAC, although the TAC also uses standard Anglican prayerbooks.

ONE FINAL PROBLEM

According to the report we've seen, they want to remain worshipping in their parishes. I'm not sure what this means. Technically, a parish is a legal structure, not a place. But I think they mean that they want to hold on to the Church of England parish churches (many of them beautiful, some even pre-Reformation) where they are the majority. This is a possibility in England (not elsewhere) because, in England, the Church of England is a creature of the state and is subject to Parliament, which, in turn, takes into account the wishes of voters. Where Anglo-Catholics have long been the majority, their M.P.s will have an incentive to support an arrangement in which they may continue to use the buildings, sometimes even exclusively. Food for thought.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

PKTP:

While I share your hope that the Anglo-Catholics may draw in their developing world brethren, I really don't think that is likely.

How many Anglicans outside England are not already protestant?

Anonymous said...

I can't stop applauding. I hope hundreds of thousands are re-converted, re-ordained, re-baptised or whatever it takes to become faithful Roman Catholics.

Welcome to the True Faith and True Tradition under the Successor of St. Peter, Benedict XVI.

Anonymous said...

"to become faithful Roman Catholics."

Or English Catholics, if they get an English Catholic Church similar to the Greek Catholics who have the Greek Catholic Church.

Aspen

Anonymous said...

I am thankful that these Anglican laymen in bishop's costumes are leading close to 400000 souls back to the Catholic Church. But do any of them accept the infallible decrees of Trent, Vatican I, and particularly the dogmas of Papal Infallibility, the Immaculate Conception and Our Lady's Assumption Body and Soul into Heaven? I've never met an Anglican who agreed with Petrine Infallibility.

Paul in the GNW said...

Lets wait and see how many, and how they come to profess the faith.

I mean really, go into the average US parish, and grab 10 Catholics and see if even one of them know what you are talking about.

Clearly, there will be need for Catechesis. Benedict will need to find some means. Don't believe that all the RCIA converts are all that "converted" when they get confirmed, and some do slip back.

Let the Holy Spirit work,

as per JPII "Be not afraid" Lets work this out with the utmost of charity and good will

Praying, fasting tomorrow. Praise God

Paul

Anonymous said...

"A brave man. Sacrificing as noble an Office as an Episcopate is no small act. Bishop Burnham's devotion is inspiring."

It is brave and noble to give up a lucrative position and secure future in the name of the Truth, but in the eyes of the Catholic Church, Bishop Burnham is not an actual Bishop at all, therefore he isn't giving up any position.

Anonymous said...

"I am thankful that these Anglican laymen in bishop's costumes are leading close to 400000 souls back to the Catholic Church. But do any of them accept the infallible decrees of Trent, Vatican I, and particularly the dogmas of Papal Infallibility, the Immaculate Conception and Our Lady's Assumption Body and Soul into Heaven? I've never met an Anglican who agreed with Petrine Infallibility."

Anglican laymen in bishops costumes.....That's exactly what they are. Laymen.

Stu said...

I've never met an Anglican who agreed with Petrine Infallibility.

And look what that got them. Perhaps events like this make believers.

Jordanes said...

I've never met an Anglican who agreed with Petrine Infallibility.

I've met quite a few former Anglicans who agree with it, though. If these Anglo-Catholics really desire unity with the Catholic Church, they will have to come to accept Petrine infallibility.

Christian said...

I quite agree with a comment on the last post regarding Anglicans - they should NOT be allowed to take their 'liturgy' with them. It was those words that caused the split from Apostolic, orthodox Christianity in the first place. They are the very essence of the Anglican heresy. Micheal Davies explains this excellently in his book 'Crammner's Godly Order'. There 'liturgy' has the blood of the Forty Martyrs spattering it and as a REAL English Catholic I will never forget that. All this talk of 'English Catholics' is deeply insulting to me. Are my ancestry who held fast to the faith despite three hundred year of dispossession, murder, hatred and discrimination less English than the ex-Anglicans?! This is thrown at us night and day by these 'High' Anglicans (implicitly at least) despite that our faith was synonymous with being English for the 800 years prior to the Reformation. The millions of souls probably damned because Anglicanism exists is sick-making

I fully welcome ex-Anglicans but if they are true converts they MUST accept that the only Church of England that has ever existed is the Catholic Church and that anything however good done by the Anglicans of the past is nothing as compares with that on true Church. Our martyrs must become theirs. If they do this then the are true followers of Jesus Christ and are to be offered every welcome and assistance.

PS: These Clergy need to be very carefully checked because I know for a fact that the moral laxity of the Catholic clergy is as nothing to many Anglican ones. That was not meant as an insult it is merely a fact.

New Catholic said...

They should be allowed to bring as much from their liturgy and customs as the Catholic and Apostolic Faith allows - that is the meaning of the Holy Father's intent, clearly presented in the accompanying letter to Summorum Pontificum: "Let us generously open our hearts and make room for everything that the faith itself allows."

Naturally, the immaculate and sacrosanct Traditional Roman Rite cannot be compared to some highly defective Anglican rites and texts (some of which are, though, as Mr Perkins rightly explained, mere excellent translations of texts of the Roman Rite as it existed for hundreds of years). Nonetheless, the message is the same: the Church, under Benedict XVI, will "generously open" [her] heart "and make room for everything that the faith itself allows."

Long live Pope Benedict - and may he be the Pontiff who will provide a stable and effective structure for the reception of former Anglicans.

Pertinacious Papist said...

Our Lady of Walsingham! Perfect! How long have English Catholics sought her intercession in the cause of the repatriation of their Faith in their fair land. I have been to East Anglia and seen her shrine under Anglican management, as well as the Slipper Chapel a mile away, now relegated to the Catholics -- where pilgrims once shed their slippers, or shoes, to walk the last mile unshod. Our Lady of Walsingham, pray for us!

Ad Orientem said...

One distinct possibility that has been little discussed is that the reconciled Anglicans could be allowed to use a translated and slightly adapted version of the Use of Sarum or York. There are many aspects of High Church Anglo-Catholicism which are not incompatible with the dogma and teachings of the Roman Church (or Orthodoxy for that matter).

For those concerned about the theology of the potential converts it is worth noting that the bishops of the TAC all signed a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and submitted it with their petition to be reconciled to Rome as some sort of Anglican uniate church. I would expect that any of the Anglican "clergy" (a neutral term that does not imply their orders have grace which you have all correctly noted they do not, but nonetheless extends a polite acknowledgment that they hold some status amongst their co-religionists)who are planning on swimming the Tiber would be expected to make a similar profession of faith.

ICXC NIKA
John

Anonymous said...

On Traditional Anglicans on doctrine:

1. The tiny Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC) has accepted ALL Catholic dogma, and that means all.

2. This new group are Anglo-Catholics, like the TAC group. They will also accept all Catholic dogma. These are not problems. They are yesterday's problems. We are not dealing here with evangelical Anglicans who object to homerasty. Their entry into the Catholic Church won't come until later this summer, at the Lambeth Conference in August. This present group are Anglo-Catholics.


On Liturgy:

1. This new group has been using our Traditional Latin Mass for many years now. They use a nineteenth century translation in liturgical English known as the English Missal. They have solved this problem in advance. They are asking that they might keep those extra-Mass prayers from their tradition. I see a small problem æsthetically, in that these prayers might be associated with an eighteenth-century 'High Protestantism', but that is something which, let's face it, only a few scholars will notice.

The Anglican Missal (distinct from the English Missal just mentioned) preferred by the TAC group is a compromise between our Traditional Latin Mass and the Anglican prayerbooks. It is much closer to Catholic liturgy than the Anglican Use Missal approved for the U.S.A. If we could accept the Anglican Use, I can't see how we could reject the Anglican Missal. That would be inconsistent and absurd. A Roman commission may have to examine their various other prayers and make some amendments to them over time, but I doubt it.

These are not problems. The people involved here are probably more Catholic than about 90% of our faithful in the Novus Ordo pews At least they'd feel nauseous, as I do, upon hearing that horrid 'Blessed are You Lord God of all creation' thingy which replaced the Glorious Roman Offertory in 1970.

P.K.T.P.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

Most Anglo-Catholics in the Church of England use the Novus Ordo, with a few additions. The English Missal is used by very few Anglicans, most especially the few members of the FSSM. (An Anglican equivalent of the FSSP)

The Anglican Missal has a more widespread following in the TAC and the Anglo-Catholics in the USA. However, many who use the Anglican Missal are not necessarily orthodox in matters of female ordination and morality.

Other "Catholic" Anglicans use the 1928 Book of Common Prayer with borrowings from Catholic ritual.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

"It is brave and noble to give up a lucrative position and secure future in the name of the Truth, but in the eyes of the Catholic Church, Bishop Burnham is not an actual Bishop at all, therefore he isn't giving up any position."

Bishop Burnham may not be a bishop in reality, but in his present denomination he is treated like one, and has all the perks of one. It is those privileges that he is giving up -- and that is an immense sacrifice.

Benedict said...

"It is brave and noble to give up a lucrative position and secure future in the name of the Truth, but in the eyes of the Catholic Church, Bishop Burnham is not an actual Bishop at all, therefore he isn't giving up any position."

In our eyes he might not have held a valid Episcopate, but in his own eyes he certainly did, and that's all that counts in his situation. He is willing to sacrifice what he believes in for the Truth, and that is telling about him as a person. That is what I said, and that is what I meant, so lets try not to get hung up on semantics that probably (if all goes as we all hope it does) won't matter in a few months time.


By the way, "Anonymous" is annoying. Sign a handle, at least.

Anonymous said...

Praise the Lord!

Felipe said...

Actually, Burnham - and most of those following him - do accept papal infallibility, as odd as that may sound. (I've never made sense of this type of Anglicanism.) If one reads past comments of his, it is pretty clear that he has for some time been looking for means by which to make a corporate move to full communion.

E.g. "We have to answer the question: in what sense can people live out the Catholic religion in the Church of England? Then, if that's not possible we have to decide on an individual or corporate ecclesial solution."

http://www.ebbsfleet.org.uk/ndrlab00.htm

Although there is naturally material that readers here will object to, it's also worth reading his 1996 piece on Apostolicae Curae, which contains gems such as:

"Moral relativism, biblical and credal scepticism and ecclesiological pragmatism have together begun to turn Anglicanism into a set of liberal propositions, doctrinally and morally, which are dogmatic about nothing except the need not to be dogmatic. There are ironies besides the illiberalism of liberalism. Among these is the irony that the less compulsion there is to believe specific things - the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, sexual abstinence outside marriage, the right to life of unborn children - the less people seem to be convinced of anything. Benign liberalism has never impressed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the relativism of liberal statements makes detailed negotiation with those who make those statements almost impossible."

http://trushare.com/15AUG96/AU96APOS.htm

I hope that Burnham and those who follow him will be treated generously. And please - bear in mind that many Anglo-Catholics read blogs such as this one; now is not the time for comments containing intemperate language or silly point-scoring.

LCB said...

One thing not considered:

What about the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of American Episcopalians who have no interest in remaining with TEC now that the presiding Priestess/Bishopess has been confirmed at Lambeth?

I know MANY who want to come home to Rome, but are so put off by the obnoxious liturgy, music, homelitics, behavior, etc in a standard Roman Catholic parish.

My prediction:

Too soon to make predictions.

LeonG said...

Many of the traditional Anglicans whom I have made acquaintance and friendships with over the years have been more Catholic than most modern Catholics I know. The Latin Mass they attended was quite a removing experience when all around us The Church was doing its utmost to make it a liturgical fossil. If they can accept the full weight of true papal authority & full Catholic doctrine, then they ought to be welcomed. There will be some difficulties to overcome. In years to come we may find many of these converts in the congregations of The Latin Mass of All Times.

Anonymous said...

I would like to thank Carlos Antonio Palad for the information he has supplied about the liturgy of this new group of Anglo-Catholics, who are distinct from the TAC.

A couple of months ago, Darío Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos, President of the P.C.E.D., said publicly that, as one of the fruits of "Summorum Pontificum", he had received a letter from a non-Catholic bishop who represented not only priests and laics but even some other bishops. He said that this group had expressed an interest in converting to the Church so as to use our Gregorian Mass exclusively (which is why they wrote to the President of the P.C.E.D.). This could not have been the TAC submission, which was much earlier, in October, 2007, and which was delivered to Cardinal Levada, not to Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos.

It seems likely, at this point, that this petitioner was Anglican 'Bishop' Burnham. If so, they are saying that they want our Mass, probably according to he English Missal (i.e. in liturgical English). If so, the fact that many of them may be currently using the N.O.M. would become irrelevant. I think that they want some sort of structure so as to use the Gregorian Mass together with some of their Anglican liturgical and disciplinary traditions.

In the case of the TAC, they seem to use the Anglican Missal (not the English Missal) in many places, which is a mixture of the Gregorian Mass and Anglican prayerbooks. In many countries, they just use their national prayerbooks but usually with some interpolations. However, their leader, 'Archbishop Hepworth' did mention about a year ago the possibility of switching to the English Missal.

P.K.T.P.

Josephus Muris Saliensis said...

Lots of sensible comments, so how about a more light-hearted one...

Isn't it felicitous that the Bishop of Ebbsfleet has his own Eurostar station opened last year, Ebbsfleet International, from which to embark upon his journey to Rome?

Thank you CTRL, for this prophetic naming of the new station – rarely are railways part of the economy of salvation.

Jack said...

Actually, the state of the orders of the Anglo-Catholics is not as clear-cut as many here seem to think. The Burnham group have over the century-plus since Apostolicae Curae had infusions of Old Catholic orders. Note that Graham Leonard, quondam Bishop of London, was ordained sub conditione, not absolutely, for that very reason.

As for the TAC group, I understand they trace their orders only partly from Anglican sources but primarily from the Polish National Catholic Church, a body that the Holy See recognizes as holding valid orders. They may not need even sub conditione ordination, but merely a profession of faith.

New Catholic said...

As it was said in the previous thread, peculiar situations will demand peculiar solutions, provided by the only man who can provide exceptions for particular cases, the Bishop of Rome - but the standard and general (and permanent) position of the Church on Anglican orders is that they are invalid.

Jack Panino said...

And TAC for certain and FiF/UK probably do not have "Anglican" orders but Polish National Catholic orders in the case of the former and Old Catholic orders in the case of the latter. Leo XIII's error does not apply in these cases.

Anonymous said...

Leo XIII's error does not apply in these cases.

Jack:

You've got to be kidding, right? Only a heretic or schismatic would make such an assertion!

Antonio said...

And today, we also have Bishop Edwin Barnes speaking about "friends in the Roman Communion":
http://www.churchunion.co.uk/

Anonymous said...

On Jack's comments:

Given the numbers of people involved, I think that the Holy Father may resort to conditional ordinations for the lot of them. Yes, the TAC group is a mixed bag, but it would be dangerous to try to figure out who was really a priest because the matter of intent also comes in.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

On the matter of Third World Anglicans coming in to a reconciled uniate TAC:

I think that the terms of religious debates have changed very greatly in the past two or three decades. The old Protestant doctinal issues are no longer 'front and centre'. The new issues are womanpriest and inverted marriage for sodomites. Therefore, I don't think that the old Protestant theological issues will keep many Anglicans away from Rome in the Third World.

Just a thought.

P.K.T.P.

New Catholic said...

Dear Mr Perkins,

Could you please contact us at newcatholic AT gmail DOT com?

Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Carlos Antonio Palad is right to emphasize that the majority of advanced Anglo-Catholics (and by 'advanced' I meant those closest to Rome)use, and have used for many years, the Novus Ordo. The use of the English Missal is a rare survival in Britain and most who use it are eccentrics. It has survived more widely in the United States, primarily because few American Anglo-Catholics are 'papalists' and see no need to adopt post-Vatican II liturgical models.

For many Anglo-Catholic clergy the reversion to the English Missal would be as rubrically difficult and confusing as it is for many Catholic priests who are expected to use the Missal of Pius V for the first time in their lives. I find it a little difficult to believe that an Anglican bishop would have written such a letter to Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos as he would know the reality of the liturgical position of those who would seek reception into the Church.

But, apart from which, the majority of Anglican converts are willing to accept the Church as she is and don't want to change one sectarian mentality for another.

str1977@googlemail.com said...

Why can't the detractors of the Novus Ordo never hold back? Why do they have to voice their dislike of it - mostly in languag irreconcilable with submission to God's Church - even in thread where it is irrelevant?

Dymphna said...

So to get to the point: Anglo Catholics want their own bishops, their own parishes and to go on as they always have but on the Catholic dime? Right or wrong?