Rorate Caeli

...of things to come?

For the first time in decades, a cerimoniere pontificio - Monsignor Marco Agostini, an official in the State Secretariat who has also been since June 2009 in the staff of the Office for the Liturgical Celebrations of the Supreme Pontiff, headed by Mgr. Guido Marini - celebrated the Traditional Mass publicly. It took place yesterday in the Personal Parish of Santissima Trinità dei Pellegrini, the parish entrusted to the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter (FSSP) in the Diocese of Rome.

[Source & tip: Osservatore Vaticano blog]


Fritz said...

Even if this is a sign of things to come, the meeting with Kiko and Carmen on Jan. 20 will be just as much, if not more, of a sign. This may be a balancing act to show diversity of rites in union with Rome. The former will not balance the latter with regard to the talks with the SSPX; they do not want Tradition to be the Mesozoic display in the Vatican Museum of Diversity, but rather restored to the center of the Church which enlivens her. So, it seems to me that this is a "one step forward" coupled with the Neocatechumenal "two steps back."

New Catholic said...

These things are not at all comparable - one is a very tiny gesture, the other is a major liturgical decision.

Johanna said...

Another crumb. Let's get our tails wagging.

Fritz said...

New Catholic,
If you are considering the NeoCatechumenal Way as the major liturgical decision, then we do not in essence disagree. That a priest in the SS makes use of SP publicly at an FSSP parish is a relatively small thing, especially compared to the legitimizing a new liturgical rite.

Ecclesia Militans said...

If I may ask, I would be interested to know you view on this position, NC, because I don't think you have ever shared it with us.

Is it acceptable for you that Tradition be just one "charism" in the Church (the Vatican's current view), compared by to movements like the NCW, Opus Dei or the charismatics?

Or do you feel that the only solution is for Tradition to be restored to the center of the Church, as Fritz nicely puts it?

GQ Rep said...

I just came back yesterday from a job since Dec. 26 (photo shoot for magazines) overseas. I also had he opportunity to attend the TLM in various countries. While it was impressive, you would have to plan way ahead, and do alot of research to find even 1 church where you could get to a Tridentine Latin Mass. Fortunatly, I have some good friends and associates on our agengy staff who are Catholics too, and two of them are liekwise traditional Catholics in their 20's and 30's who did the research for us before we left.
In one country, (I won't name names because I don't like to get into the polemics of the decisions of these bishops etc), there is only 1 parish in the whole country which had the TLM daily, and perhaps 2-3 which have it every Sunday. I thought Summorum Pontificum was supposed to open things up whereby these bishops couldn't block anything...
But to get back on track, you will much more likely find the improvised, fabricated trashy liturgies that this Kiko and Carmen support in parishes, than anything else resembling Catholic.
Not even in Protestant churches can you find some of the bizarre crap I saw one weekend. Clapping and jumping up and down at the consecration to "cheer for Jesus"....give me a break!! LOL!!!

If this Kiko and Carmen have their way with their own liturgy, I guarantee you that there are genuinely evil men in the Vatican pushing this agenda....and perhaps even the Pope. If he were truely against it, he'd ban it...right!? Let's hope he would have the backbone to do so.

But unfortunatly, I doubt it.
I will be thrilled if these two nutjobs don't get approval.
It's possible....but with people like Bertone running the Vatican, don't hold your breath...pray for the best, but be prepared for the worst.

CMI said...

I want to rejoice at this, but I can't. I feel that it is only another option for the hierarchy, that is, they don't see it as the traditional mass, the real mass, the most beautiful mass, the eternal mass, bringing down so much more graces and being the heart of the Church, but instead it is just another option. A choice. "Either or, doesn't matter." Another dish at the table, no more.

Malta said...

I agree New Catholic.

It was almost anathema to be in anyway associated with the Traditional Latin Mass just a few short years ago. Now we have the Pope and his liturgical Master of Ceremonies promoting it.

Much mortar, blood, sweat and tears need to be expended to rebuild our blessed Church (comparably, and in like manner, Chartres Cathedral was destroyed and rebuilt 18 times, and threatened by forces even within France, until it became the magnificent structure it is today) but it will be done, slowly, and over time. I think our Pope is striving to move things in the right direction.

Sometimes it takes almost total destruction to realize the things you hold dear are almost lost.

Mike said...

I believe St. Maximilan Kolbe was ordained at this Roman Church, so lets pray for his intercession on the restoration of the TLM around the world.

Jordanes551 said...

Note to the Anonymous who "told us so":

It is not your grammar, nor even your opinions, that prevents your comments from being published. It's simply your persistently attempting to post comments as "Anonymous." Please follow Note (2) above. Thank you.

Bob F. said...

The Vatican can issue pronouncements requiring this allowing that all day long. That doesn't mean Bishop X, Y, or Z is going to give a fiddle.

I know some bishops who really don't like the neo-cats and more or less keep them out of their dioceses. They will probably continue on this course even if their 'liturgy' gets approved.

We all know bishops who have basically nullified SP in their dioceses.

There is not too much the Vatican can do to make these bishops do otherwise.

Pretty much our best course is to wait for the next generation of priests to take the reigns (at least I think this will lead to a major improvement in the US, but I am maybe less optimistic about other parts of the world).

IRISH said...

How is it possible that the Vatican can even consider approving the liturgy of the Neocats
When their beliefs and liturgy have little in common with the true Catholic Mass.

For example the Neocats teach that;
"the [Vatican] Council has replaced theology and there is no more mention of the dogma of redemption".
in the theology of the Mass, there is no sacrifice of Jesus, no sacrifice of the Cross,

The Neocatechumenate's "Mass" contains serious omissions from the normal public liturgy of the Church. For example, on Kiko's orders the creed is not recited - one can make one's own guess at the reasoning behind this order. The Orate, Fratres is omitted on Kiko's orders, because it mentions sacrifice and Kiko denies the Mass is a sacrifice. The Agnus Dei has similarly been suppressed by him because of the reference to taking "away the sins of the world." Kiko denies that Christ takes away sin because of his belief that man is for ever and always ontologically "zero plus sin". The Lavobo (washing of hands) and Domine, non sum sanabitur anima mea are both omitted on Kiko's orders. This is again because of Kiko's Lutheran theology. The Lavabo is a symbol of God purifying us, but God cannot purify us because in Luther's theology we are unredeemable. The Domine,i non sum sanabitur anima mea is omitted again because this prayer suggests that Christ can sanctify us, when in Kiko's theology we are and always will be "zero plus sin.

"there is no Eucharist without the assembly (.). It is from the assembly that the Eucharist springs." This is also of course another reason why their leaders do not believe in priests. If it's the assembly that brings about the Real Presence and the host is merely a symbol.

The leaders of the Way believe that once the celebration is finished, Christ is no longer present. Consequently, they are opposed to the reservation of the Blessed Sacrament, genuflecting, Eucharistic adoration, daily communicating and tabernacles etc.

This is just a few of the serious errors and beliefs of this heretical organisation.
So what happens now if on the 20th January Pope Benedict approves their strange and heretical liturgy! Where do we now stand in this ever increasing diabolical confusion.
God help us all.!

Steve said...

"If I may ask, I would be interested to know you view on this position, NC, because I don't think you have ever shared it with us."

Or just maybe, not knowing exactly where contributors stand, is part of this blog's allure.

BC said...

How very, very, daring of him! The signs of things to come indeed - bring 'em on!

Gratias said...

Sorry, to find the Michael Davies report the search should say: cardinal Ratzinger's mass in Weimar.

Gregorian Mass said...

Indeed good news and a good sign. But I wish more Tridentine Masses were celebrated in St. Peter's. I often read that prelates are going to this particular Church to celebrate the Mass. It gives off the impression that this is the place to go if you want to hear Mass according to the 1962 Missal. I am sure it is not the intention but the result can come dangerously close to "ghettoizing" the Mass into certain locations only. More Churches should be staffed with Priests who can say this Form of Mass and also have the essentials needed (liturgical goods and vestments) so that at any given time a spontaneous Extraordinary Form Mass can be celebrated. The more locations that this Mass is celebrated the better. More people will learn about it, maybe attend it, and word will continue to spread that this is an authorized and even encouraged Form of Mass available to all the Faithful. Too many people still do not know about it or think it was banned years ago. Of course the Pope's offering of this Mass would go a long way in educating the Faithful that this is a valid and respected Form of Mass.I will continue to pray the Holy Father celebrates this Mass soon. As the Pope who promulgated Summorum Pontificum is only seems fitting that we should see him as head of the Church, which has two Forms of the Roman Mass, to celebrate it on occasion. Media coverage will spread the word and encourage support from the Faithful.

Ivan K said...

I am a squishy traditionalist hungry for any crumbs. If the approval of the Neocat heresy also leads to the 'regularisation' of the SSPX--and, most importantly, to greater access to the TLM--I will be very, very grateful. A chicken in every pot? No thank you! "The Mass of Ages everywhere in the world," on the other hand, is a platform worth praying for. If that means that I have to hear the Neocat guitars strumming from behind closed windows as I pass their secret meeting places, late one Saturday night...well, I can live with that. I'll say an extra decade for them. Yes, it is BXVI's much-maligned 'balanced' approach, but I suspect that it might be the best that is possible at the moment. We'll let the St. Dominics of the future venture into their zones of heresy to bring the poor souls back to the truth.

Matthew said...

Whatever the significance of this offering of the TLM by a prelate close to the Holy Father, I earnestly hope that the Holy Father himself offers the TLM publicly, and soon. He promulgated the Motu Propio extolling the TLM, and de facto liberated it, so if they really are "two forms of the same Rite" then why not celebrate the 'other' form? Such an act would send an important message. Though one I am sure one with which many in the Curia, etc., are rather uncomfortable.

Let us pray!

Gratias said...

I go with Ivan K on this one.


Barrabas said...

I've been to Santissima Trinità dei Pellegrini many times. It's a small church that is only ever half or at best three quarters full hence the lack of interest on the part of most prelates.

Janet said...

If the "KIKO MASS" is approved, mark my words, a license will be given to every priest or layperson for every and any liturgical abuse.

This decision is far more reaching than Summorum Potificum.

I don't know how much money Kiko is paying certain Vatican officials for their approval, but it will certainly have disastrous effects.

If the pope personally gives his approval, then I never more could I consider him a champion of the liturgy.

Would an online petition help?

Let us pray for a miracle.

Dan said...

Dear Gregorian Mass:

My experience, or at least the experience of my son, is that there are several ancient Rite masses said at St Peter's every day, albeit at the side altars. He just completed his Fall term in Rome and served the old Mass there nearly every day.

On a somewhat related matter I recently asked the pastor of the Novus Ordo Church here in Milwaukee where my wife and I were married many years ago if we could have the traditional Mass said on our upcoming February 13th anniversary. To my surprise and delight he said an enthusiastic "yes" and things are all planned for a 7:00 p.m. evening Mass on that date next month (anyone living near Milwaukee, by the way, is cordially invited to Christ King Parish on Swan Blvd to attend if they so desire). They couldn't possibly have been nicer about it. In fact they are bending over backwards to accomodate us. Quite a pleasant change after being treated like dirt for the past four decades.

Which is not to imply that I am being Pollyannnaish about the dire situation we are in. I only mention these things to, hopefully, give someone a little uplift in these dark days...and perhaps encourage others to approach some of their pastors.

Huw said...

I always to go Sta Trinità when I am in Rome and was fortunate enough to be present for Mgr. Agostini's Mass. It is true that the number of worshippers is disappointing but I do think the church attracts the attention of many senior prelates, hence the Mass on Sunday. On another occasion Cardinal Pell celebrated on the feast of the Immaculate Conception.

Matt said...

Bob F wrote, "There is not too much the Vatican can do to make these bishops do otherwise."

That doesn't square with me (not your comment) in that there is a whole lot the Vatican can do but doesn't want to!

Case in point, when a priest or bishop derails himself with something inappropriate, i.e., what we just had here in Los Angeles, BAM the guy is gone. Yes, the bishop tendered his resignation, but what if he didn't? Would he have been carrying on as though nothing happened at all? Rome would have take measures to remove him. Not impossible at all.

Whenever we hear of Clergy teaching nonsense and what-not as we do everyday, as well as being denied the right hear Tridentine Masses via Summorum Pontificum, nothing happens because Rome doesn't want to do anything.

It's perplexing how Rome has a conniption fit over sexual misconduct on the part of the Clergy (and rightly so) but has a hand-wringing festival over how to proceed when anything doctrinal or Liturgical is misconducted with.

The SSPX/Rome matter and this silly NeoCat Mass are some things to watch for. It will give us all a great barometer on Magisterial thinking.


Damask Rose said...

I for the life of me cannot believe that Rome would approve this further Protestantised version of the Novus Ordo Neo-Cat "Rite". It practically lives and breathes Martin Luther.

If you're supposed to have "two forms of the same Rite" and "mutual enrichment" between these two, where does (God forbid) the Neo-Cat "Rite" fit into this?

I can see Ivan K's point at 4.29, but still can't believe they'll approve it.

Perhaps the Vatican will send the Neo-Cats a "Doctrinal Preamble" to mull over.

But how is the Church to save all the people following Kiko et al?

Either way, just in case, here's a litany to some people who showed real mettle in defending the Mass of Ages. Perhaps we could ask for their intercession for Rome to take the right path. Quo vadis?

(A prayer for private use)

Lord have mercy on us, Christ have mercy on us. Lord have mercy on us. Christ hear us.
Christ graciously hear us.
God the Father, Have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world, Have mercy on us.
God the Holy Spirit, Have mercy on us.
Mary, Queen of Apostles, Pray for us.
Mary, Queen of Martyrs, Pray for us.
St John Houghton, Pray for us.
St Richard Reynolds, Pray for us.
St Augustine Webster, Pray for us.
St Robert Lawrence, Pray for us.
St John Stone, Pray for us.
St Cuthbert Mayne, Pray for us.
St Edmund Campion, Pray for us.
St Ralph Sherwin, Pray for us.
St Alexander Briant, Pray for us.
St John Payne, Pray for us.
St Luke Kirby, Pray for us.
St Richard Gwyn, Pray for us.
St Margaret Clitherow, Pray for us.
St Margaret Ward, Pray for us.
St Edmund Gennings, Pray for us.
St Swithun Wells, Pray for us.
St Polydore Plasden, Pray for us.
St Eustace White, Pray for us.
St John Boste, Pray for us.
St Robert Southwell, Pray for us.
St Henry Walpole, Pray for us.
St Philip Howard, Pray for us.
St John Jones, Pray for us.
St John Rigby, Pray for us.
St Anne Line, Pray for us.
St Nicholas Owen, Pray for us.
St Thomas Garnet, Pray for us.
St John Roberts, Pray for us.
St John Almond, Pray for us.
St Edmund Arrowsmith, Pray for us.
St Ambrose Barlow, Pray for us.
St Alban Roe, Pray for us.
St Henry Morse, Pray for us.
St John Southworth, Pray for us.
St John Plessington, Pray for us.
St Philip Evans, Pray for us.
St John Lloyd, Pray for us.
St John Wall, Pray for us.
St John Kemble, Pray for us.
St David Lewis, Pray for us.
Let us pray. Oh God, in whom there is no change or shadow of alteration, you gave courage to the Holy Martyrs. Grant unto us, we beseech you, through their intercession, the grace to always value the Holy Mass. May we be strengthened to serve you in imitation of the courage of these Holy Martyrs. We ask this through Jesus Christ, Your Son, who lives and reigns with You in the unity of the Holy Spirit, forever. Amen.

Damask Rose said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
OREOMAN said...

The more I read about these NEOCATS them more I fear the future they are not Catholic THey are a monderist cult.