Interview granted by the Father Abbot of the most influential Traditional abbey in the world, Our Lady of Fontgombault (France), to French Catholic periodical La Nef -- Lothar Rillinger (for Kath.net) and Christophe Geffroy (for La Nef, for complementary questions) are the interviewers.
La Nef
June 2025
Dom Jean Pateau: “Unity is not uniformity”
We are delighted to offer you this exclusive interview in its original language with TRP Dom Jean Pateau, Father Abbot of Fontgombault, which was conducted by Lothar Rilinger for translation into German for the kath.net website. We spoke to him ourselves to complete the interview, in order to gather his words following the death of Francis and the election of Leo XIV.
La Nef - You celebrate Mass in your abbey in the ancient rite. Do you think this way of celebrating could endanger the unity of believers?
Dom Jean Pateau - First of all, I owe you a clarification. The conventual mass at the abbey is not celebrated according to the 1962 missal, known as the Vetus Ordo or ancient rite, but according to the 1965 missal. While the latter missal is the fruit of the reform called for by the Council on December 4, 1963, it is still close to the 1962 missal, retaining the offertory and most of the gestures. We have also opted to use the current calendar for the sanctoral. We have kept the old temporal, which contains the Septuagesima, the octave of Pentecost and the Ember Days, but we celebrate Christ the King on the last Sunday of the year, along with the universal Church. All this contributes to a rapprochement with the current 1969 missal.
To respond more directly to your question about ecclesial unity, I would like to remind you that Benedict XVI, in his letter to the bishops on the occasion of the publication of the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum, examined two fears opposed to the publication of this text:
- diminishing the authority of the Vatican II Council and casting doubt on the liturgical reform;
- leading to disorder and even fractures in parish communities.
With regard to the questioning of the authority of the Second Vatican Council, it is worth remembering that, a few months after the publication of the 1965 Ordo Missæ, the Arch-Abbot de Beuron [Rorate note: the great German abbey] sent St. Paul VI a copy of the post-conciliar edition of the Schott Missal in conformity with this Ordo. On May 28, 1966, the Secretary of State, Cardinal Cicognani, addressed a letter of thanks to the Abbot on behalf of the Pope, in which he declared: “The characteristic and essential point of this new recast edition is that it is the perfect culmination of the Council's Liturgical Constitution.”
As for the second point, it seems to me that we need to be wary of easy caricatures. There are places where divisions have occurred and continue to occur. But there are also places where things are peaceful. Many people would be surprised to learn that the majority of young people who choose to join so-called traditional communities are not young people who were brought up in traditional communities right from the cradle. I am myself a case in point. As for the young people who join traditional communities, they are very free in their liturgical practices and have long since abandoned their parishes of origin.
Unity in the Church is not uniformity. Working towards unity does not mean working towards uniformity. I would even go so far as to say that imposing uniformity is detrimental to unity. This, it seems to me, was Benedict XVI's perspective. Working towards unity means enabling everyone to benefit both from the treasures of the Church's long liturgical tradition and from the reform called for by the Second Vatican Council. It is about living out liturgical diversity, not as competition or humiliation, but in the service of proclaiming the Gospel.
Do the faithful in France wish to attend Mass according to the old rite?
It is difficult to answer this question, since the 1962 missal is rarely celebrated. What we can say, however, is that people who do attend this type of celebration are sensitive to its contemplative, more God-oriented dimension. Many of the faithful are open to occasional attendance at Masses celebrated according to this missal, and willingly declare that it strengthens their faith. In the letter quoted above, Benedict XVI noted that, against all expectations, “many people remain strongly attached” to the old missal. That's for sure, and we can add that many people who come across it become attached to it. It's a welcome sign.
Have you noticed that young people in particular appreciate the old missal and go to church more often because of it?
I can testify that a young religious who attended a Mass celebrated according to the Vetus Ordo asked me, quite unexpectedly as far as I was concerned: “How is it possible that the Church has hidden this from us?” Others have expressed a desire to attend a Mass according to this Ordo. The first contact with the ancient form of mass can sometimes be more surprising: "I came here because people say bad things about you!" Drowning in a hyper-connected, noisy world where messages are omnipresent, they appreciate the silence and sobriety of the texts in the Vetus Ordo. This more expressive, less cerebral character seems to me to be a pastoral asset. It has been said that the faithful who attend Mass according to the Vetus Ordo have a more regular practice. I readily believe this. But I believe the same is true for young people who are attached to lively parishes and communities.
Could celebration according to the old rite also be a means to a new evangelization?
To answer your question properly, let's go back to the 1965 missal. Pierre Jounel devoted a book (1) to the rites of the Mass in 1965. In his introduction, he notes that "when, in 1962, the Congregation of Rites published a new editio typica of the Roman Missal... no one had the impression that it was anything truly new. On the contrary, on March 7, 1965, priests and faithful discovered a new liturgy...: the use of the vernacular, the celebration of the Liturgy of the Word outside the altar, the fact that the celebrant no longer recited in private the texts proclaimed by a minister or sung by the congregation." These reflections, from a liturgist who lived through the implementation of the reform, together with the judgment of Pope Paul VI mentioned above, seem to me to give the 1965 missal a particular authority and therefore a missionary effectiveness of its own. It is on this basis that I would like to respond.
Jounel continues his introduction by noting that, "since March 7, certain problems posed by the liturgical reform have matured surprisingly quickly." -- The book's imprimatur dates from July 16, 1965! -- "In the celebration before the people..., gestures inherited from the Middle Ages, such as the repeated kissing of the altar, the signing of the oblates, the repeated genuflections, or the recitation of the Canon in a low voice, have become a real burden for priests who, until then, had observed the rubrics with complete peace of mind".
And this is precisely one of the criticisms leveled at the current missal.
The link between celebrating in front of the people and the fact that liturgical gestures have suddenly become a burden is noteworthy, and seems to me to attest to a change in the state of mind, even the state of soul, of these priests. Why do these gestures, which until now have been performed naturally, become a burden? Is the priest ashamed? Does he find ridiculous, when the faithful see him, what he used to do naturally in front of God? It's not for everyone to ignore the stares at your face.
Has not the same change in mindset and mood occurred among the faithful? For example, the fact of celebrating Mass according to the current missal, albeit in an oriented manner [Rorate note: versus Deum], has provoked strong reactions and misunderstanding on the part of some of the faithful.
The undeniable quest for sacredness, both among young people and among many of the faithful, certainly merits consideration by liturgists. In this regard, we invite you to read Bishop Erik Varden's [Rorate Note: Varden is a Norwegian Trappist and Bishop of Trondheim] very interesting contribution, The body at prayer (2), given at the opening of an ecumenical symposium. The apostolic letter Desiderio desideravi has the merit of addressing this question.
Today, some priests recognize that they celebrate privately according to the Vetus Ordo. This nourishes their spiritual life. If the celebration of the Eucharist is not a matter of personal devotion, one cannot reproach a priest for wanting to draw from it, to seek substantial nourishment from it. In this sense, the abandonment of orientation from the Offertory onwards and the drastic reduction in gestures are regrettable.
So I believe that evangelization could undoubtedly be boosted by a rediscovery of the traditional orientation and gestures that could well be introduced, ad libitum, into today's missal, and which emphasize that the Eucharist is the living memorial of the Redemption, that there is an Other who is made present, and that before this Other all must step aside in adoration. The sole subject of the liturgy is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, of which Christ is the Head and sole High Priest, and of which priests and faithful are members. Mutual enrichment of the two missals should be combined with mystagogical catechesis, in the manner of the Church Fathers.
Do you see the motu proprio Traditionis custodes as a break with Benedict XVI/Ratzinger, who facilitated celebration in the old rite?
There is no denying that Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI facilitated celebration according to the Vetus Ordo. Benedict XVI also paved the way for the mutual influence of the two missals, firstly by choosing the same terminology: ordinary form and extraordinary form of the same Roman rite, and secondly by inviting, “the new saints, and some of the new prefaces, can and should be inserted into the old missal... The celebration of Mass according to the Paul VI missal will be able to express more strongly than hitherto that sacredness which attracts so many people to the ancient rite." Surprisingly, it took the Ecclesia Dei Commission thirteen years to introduce new saints and prefaces to the old missal. Such a delay can only be explained by opposition, which may have come both from circles committed to preserving the old missal without any additions, and from liturgists who, having resolved the death of the Vetus Ordo, took a very dim view of any updating of this missal that might prolong its use.
I think it is important to reread Pope Benedict's letter to the bishops on the occasion of the publication of the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum, which attests to his objectives:
- internal reconciliation within the Church;
- that all those who truly desire unity have the opportunity to remain in that unity or to find it anew.
Has the desired reconciliation taken place? Admittedly not. The Church, its members, bishops, priests and faithful are suffering, albeit for different reasons.
Nevertheless, the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum had undeniably pacified the situation. It ushered in a new era. I have always believed, however, that this era would not last unless real work was done in the direction intended by Benedict XVI. This work has not been done.
Pope Francis' motu proprio Traditionis custodes has changed the discipline. The situation for faithful attached to the old missal has become more difficult. Some have turned to the Society of St. Pius X. Others travel many miles to attend mass according to the 1962 or 1965 missal, or to receive a sacrament. Tensions have reappeared in many places. Resentments are exacerbated; misunderstandings are accentuated, especially when the number of faithful attending mass according to the Vetus Ordo is increasing, and their average age is rather young. Looking for political reasons for this success is misguided. If the faithful go to these places, it is simply because they find something they're looking for.
In my view, there are two reasons for resuming the work called for by Pope Benedict to bring the two missals closer together.
Firstly, we can't ignore the fact that the Second Vatican Council took place and that the Constitution on the Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, was published, calling for a reform of the missal. Keeping the 1962 missal or the old pontifical seems to me difficult to reconcile with this fact.
Secondly, the sharp decline in religious practice cannot be ignored. Contrary to popular belief, the appeal of the old missal is not confined to certain European countries or the United States. So it is legitimate to ask whether a more expressive rite might not go some way towards stemming this decline. The reactions of the faithful, of tourists, who happen to attend a conventual mass in our monastery, and who are deeply moved, lead me to believe that an ad libitum enrichment of the 1969 missal in terms of gestures, specifically the use of the ordinary of the 1965 missal with the offertory, and an oriented celebration would not be without fruit. It would then be legitimate for all priests and Christians to benefit.
What is your assessment of Pope Francis' pontificate?
It is too early to make an assessment of Francis' pontificate. Pope Francis was a gift from God to the Church of our time, just as Pope Leo is today. From Pope Francis, I treasure his motto Miserando atque eligendo - By showing mercy and choosing. Having experienced God's mercy when he felt chosen by the Lord to become a priest, he never ceased to make people aware of God's gaze upon them, and to invite everyone to see their neighbor in the same light. Every human being is the object of God's mercy and is chosen by Him, even the most wretched. From God, he has received a right to exist, a right to be the object of true love, a love of choice. To receive and put into practice this motto is demanding, especially when our neighbor is a burden to us. Yet the Pope called us to nothing less than the imitation of Christ giving his life for his friends.
With Leo XIV, the Church now has a new pope: how do you see this pontificate opening up to us?
We have a young pope endowed by the Lord with many gifts. It seems to me that we can expect a pontificate that will reap the fruits of the three great popes who preceded him, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis: John Paul II's call to mission, Pope Benedict's spirituality and teaching, and Francis' welcoming of all people. His motto, too, places us before the essential. It is an orientation: "In illo uno, unum." In him who is one, let us be one.
How do you see this liturgical question evolving with the new pontificate?
Cardinal Prevost doesn't seem to have said much about the Vetus Ordo. A disciple of Saint Augustine, he's a man of unity, a man of prayer who could be sensitive to the prayerful dimension of the Vetus Ordo. He is also a man who listens, and this listening has been sorely lacking on all sides of this issue.
A favorable day has dawned, when younger generations of priests and laypeople are already inviting, and will continue to invite, more and more people to reconsider the liturgical question in a peaceful manner, far removed from any ideology.
After more than 50 years of implementing the reform, discerning its fruits and benefiting from the experience gained would open up a synodal path, and a path of healing for some.
Just as it would be desirable for meetings to be organized at the highest level of the Church with communities attached to the celebration of the Vetus Ordo, while also listening to the experience of diocesan priests celebrating both Ordos.
This is with a view to initiating a genuine process of reflection on the celebration of the Mass, lectionaries, the calendar and the other sacraments, with a view to mutual influence, and why not lead to rapprochement, or even unification in some cases. Pope Francis' motu proprio has led to a hardening of antagonistic positions. Working towards unity does not mean maintaining a precarious balance between opposites. We need to break the deadlock. Too much spiritual energy is lost in endless struggles. Evangelization and the faithful suffer as a result.
The liturgy is one of the places where man and God meet. Christianity today is in danger of being diluted into a horizontal religion. Liturgy opens man up to God's transcendence. The rite contributes in its rightful place to disposing man to his divinization by God's grace. It particularly touches the hearts of the simple, leading them from the visible to the invisible. For this reason, it must not be neglected.
Let us move forward in hope, recognizing the fruits of reform without humiliating the achievements of centuries of liturgical practice; rather, let us rediscover them in the light of the reform willed by the Council Fathers. The Church and its liturgy can only be enriched by this.
The task is enormous. The most difficult part will probably be the conversion of hearts, openness to others who are different, the rebirth of trust between the Holy See, the ecclesiastical hierarchy, the communities attached to the celebration of the Vetus Ordo, and the faithful. For this, the Holy Father's word will be necessary. I want to believe that this dialogue remains possible, and that it will be not only profitable but profoundly fruitful for the whole Church, which needs apostles, priests and all its priests for the mission. We need to get away from the traditionalist-progressive dispute, which is exhausting for everyone, and bring peace back to the altar!
In the tabernacle, Christ is present in his Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, begging for love. He awaits his messengers. "In illo uno, unum."
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NOTES:
(1) Pierre Jounel, Les Rites de la Messe en 1965, Les premières étapes de la réforme liturgique, Tome II, Desclée, 1965.
(2) https://coramfratribus.com/life-illumined/the-body-at-prayer/
